[St. John's] Transport development (Highways, Airport, and Public Transit)

[jeddy1989]

am I missing something? do they need to build some sort of complex for people to just PARK their cars!!! ??? they do a good job at that in the ZELLERS PARKING lot during the regatta :S I'm so confused as to what this massive expense is!? maybe a couple of bus shelters?

[mrjanejacobs]

Randy Simms just likes to be a cliché, conservative, populist mayor that doesn't spend money on anything. And as he is strategically situated as the Mayor of a City that can get away with it, it continues, unchecked...

But oftentimes, Park And Ride facilities are more of parking garages than just surface parking lots.

You can find some really innovative designs for parking garages which are towers on top of train stations where the elevator of the garage brings you right to the platform of the train. Obviously this is not relevant in our case, but these designs are always proven effective and surface-park and ride facilities are always the opposite because they become a wasteland of cars. In many ways though, a park and ride facility can function in many the same ways as a train station.

I have been thinking about this problem a lot lately, and I think that yes, metro-area park and rides are also needed, but a park and ride downtown would also be hugely beneficial.



In the map, purple rectangles would be park and ride facilities (keep in mind, I didn't put thought into location, I just found an opening on the downtown periphery), the white dotted line is a tram line, and the green circles are stops. This route is super short, they could have a couple trams and they could run constantly in a loop, more trams at rush hour. Trams here for historical reasons.

This could also be an opportunity to redevelop water street and/or restore water street and/or make water street complete. Example: they could remove parking on water street completely (or on one side), put two trams lines with their own right-of ways, vehicle traffic in one direction and a bike lane. At the same time, they could restore water street to it's original cobble-stone state which would be a huge appeal for tourists, they could also dip any utilities underground, they could ease the curbs more elegantly and install a better drainage system... haha, I realize that would go beyond the mandate of the park and ride facilities but I think both projects need to be visited sooner or later and in this case, two birds and one stone.

And jus'sayin': the fact that our historic water street is asphalt is a disgrace... cobble stones really aren't a huge expense when compared with longevity, maintenance and aesthetic considerations.

[mrjanejacobs]

I actually think this proposal could be more convenient for drivers too. I can't count the number of times I've wasted upward of 20-30 minutes driving around trying to find a place and once I found one, I would have to walk like 5-10 minutes to get to my location. This way, you go straight to the parking garage, and wait 2-8 minutes for a tram and then it will take you anywhere along water street.

[techie]

Even if they started the service using metrobuses. 6 busses, running east on water and west on duck worth. I would say you wold see a bus every ten minutes.

[Townie709]

Looks like a great idea mrjanejacobs! A park and ride service along the lines of what you mentioned would do wonders for the downtown parking situation. It's also a dream of mine to see the cable cars and cobblestone streets restored on Water Street. As long as it's reasonably priced, I see no reason why people wouldn't take advantage of the service. The only problem is cost, cost, cost. But it's the kind of thing that we would look back on in 50 years and say it was one of the best decisions we ever made as a city. It would be a huge undertaking, but in the end, it would be worth it!

I wish we had some innovative people on council with the brains and balls to carry out such great and productive ideas.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

I actually think this proposal could be more convenient for drivers too. I can't count the number of times I've wasted upward of 20-30 minutes driving around trying to find a place and once I found one, I would have to walk like 5-10 minutes to get to my location. This way, you go straight to the parking garage, and wait 2-8 minutes for a tram and then it will take you anywhere along water street.

The park and rides are a great idea, but you would need a bus with frequent service during daytime hours (realistically not more than a 10 minute wait), or it would be quicker to walk in many cases.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by Architype

The park and rides are a great idea, but you would need a bus with frequent service during daytime hours (realistically not more than a 10 minute wait), or it would be quicker to walk in many cases.

Absolutely. Because it's such a short route, to provide really rapid service in the downtown, you could realistically have a headway of 3-5 minutes at rush hour and 5-10 on off-peak.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Randy Simms just likes to be a cliché, conservative, populist mayor that doesn't spend money on anything. And as he is strategically situated as the Mayor of a City that can get away with it, it continues, unchecked...

But oftentimes, Park And Ride facilities are more of parking garages than just surface parking lots.

You can find some really innovative designs for parking garages which are towers on top of train stations where the elevator of the garage brings you right to the platform of the train. Obviously this is not relevant in our case, but these designs are always proven effective and surface-park and ride facilities are always the opposite because they become a wasteland of cars. In many ways though, a park and ride facility can function in many the same ways as a train station.

I have been thinking about this problem a lot lately, and I think that yes, metro-area park and rides are also needed, but a park and ride downtown would also be hugely beneficial.



In the map, purple rectangles would be park and ride facilities (keep in mind, I didn't put thought into location, I just found an opening on the downtown periphery), the white dotted line is a tram line, and the green circles are stops. This route is super short, they could have a couple trams and they could run constantly in a loop, more trams at rush hour. Trams here for historical reasons.

This could also be an opportunity to redevelop water street and/or restore water street and/or make water street complete. Example: they could remove parking on water street completely (or on one side), put two trams lines with their own right-of ways, vehicle traffic in one direction and a bike lane. At the same time, they could restore water street to it's original cobble-stone state which would be a huge appeal for tourists, they could also dip any utilities underground, they could ease the curbs more elegantly and install a better drainage system... haha, I realize that would go beyond the mandate of the park and ride facilities but I think both projects need to be visited sooner or later and in this case, two birds and one stone.

And jus'sayin': the fact that our historic water street is asphalt is a disgrace... cobble stones really aren't a huge expense when compared with longevity, maintenance and aesthetic considerations.

I love it!

[mrjanejacobs]

And to support trams, this link helps describe in a pretty clear way some of the advantages and disadvantages of trams:

http://fuckyeahtrams.tumblr.com/post...tages-of-trams

I, personally, would support trams before buses for many, many reasons. With that said, I realize the population on the north east avalon is really headstrong on making investments in public transit and the only measures that will pass are the bare-bones, minimum.

For that reason, I wouldn't expect trams elsewhere in the City (even though they are definitely a better investment), but a water street tram makes sense for two reasons: (1) history and (2) narrow streets. Buses are, at times, 1.5-2x wider than a tram. Plus, I don't really think any rapid transit system can work without separated right-of-ways. There will be no reliability if they have to deal with traffic. Unreliable = inconvenient = deterrent.

I also hesitate on having buses on duckworth. It's a very oddly shaped road that widens and narrows continuously. Water, on the other hand, is pretty linear and straight along its entire length which makes it great for buses/trams.

In terms of price - it's really not that bad. The problem in the conversation about public transport is that the benefits are understated to the public and the detriments of the car are understated to the public. In fact, it's costing us money and will cost us even more money in the long run by NOT investing in transit. It's not the cost, Townie, it's the political will!

[Copes]

Trams certainly do feel like a better option, given our downtown streets. Are we talking about a separate tram "lane", or just installing tracks in the street and having them travel with traffic like I'm witnessing here in Toronto (I've never seen it before. )

It is also times like this where I despise St. John's neighbours.

[jjavman]

When I first saw the dotted white line, I got excited thinking it was a closing of the loop; Pitts Memorial into the Outer Ring Road !!!

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by jjavman

When I first saw the dotted white line, I got excited thinking it was a closing of the loop; Pitts Memorial into the Outer Ring Road !!!

unless they tunnel I doubt we'll ever see it

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

unless they tunnel I doubt we'll ever see it

It could run across the southside hills, have a nice suspension bridge across the narrows, tunnel through the bottom portion of Signal Hill and come out by Quidi Vidi. That would be a cool project!

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Townie709

It could run across the southside hills, have a nice suspension bridge across the narrows, tunnel through the bottom portion of Signal Hill and come out by Quidi Vidi. That would be a cool project!

Seems a teensy, tiny bit unrealstic to me.

Would be cool, though.

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Seems a teensy, tiny bit unrealstic to me.

Would be cool, though.

Just a tad

Really though, there is no practical use for completing the Outer Ring-Pitts Memorial loop. It would be cool and people would drive it, but not really useful enough to justify the huge cost of building a largely underground highway

[PoscStudent]

Though it wasn't a park and ride, the city offered free bus rides around downtown the summer before last and nobody used it.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by Townie709

It could run across the southside hills, have a nice suspension bridge across the narrows, tunnel through the bottom portion of Signal Hill and come out by Quidi Vidi. That would be a cool project!

Fuck being realistic. I support this project 100%!

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Though it wasn't a park and ride, the city offered free bus rides around downtown the summer before last and nobody used it.

I am unfamiliar with the promotion you're talking about. But that's part of the problem. Metrobus/the City are really horrible at marketing and promotion. Really horrible.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Though it wasn't a park and ride, the city offered free bus rides around downtown the summer before last and nobody used it.

I would never ride the bus. I would live on the tram.

I assume there are enough people like me to make a tram more successful.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I would never ride the bus. I would live on the tram.

I assume there are enough people like me to make a tram more successful.

I agree - the effect of trams is more than what they actually do - instead, it's about their departure from the stigma associated with buses.

But more than anything, I think we just need a branding revolution. Express buses with a contemporary marketing strategy for metrobus could be effective. We just need to use branding to distance ourselves from the current buses.

On that note, I just checked out the metrobus site:
http://www.metrobustransit.ca/home.asp

LOL - it looks like this was made in a high school tech. class... shame.