Renaissance Cumberland mixed use @ Cumberland mall

[netdragon]

I bet this got your attention, though just a disclaimer that this is actually a vision I had for a while, and not a scheduled project and I'm looking for feedback before I present this to government and private groups. I hope this is ok, but I didn't think it would make sense to post this in two places, so please see what I posted here





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[reet]

Impressively ambitious plan. Bringing more multi-family residences to an area with a high concentration of offices and amenities is a good thing.

I can't help but think that the grim view would make the upper floors a hard sell. Looking out onto the unattractive surface parking lots, highway lanes and the tops of Cumberland and Galleria wouldn't appeal to me, certainly, and I doubt it's the kind of view/setting that would appeal to most people who are looking to live in a condo tower. Because of this I would recommend making the residential buildings longer and low-rise rather than tall towers so that tree tops can be more dominant in the window views from upper floors rather than asphalt and sprawling mall tops.

[netdragon]

Hi reet,

Thanks for your feedback.

I thought about that originally and actually about re-orienting the buildings 90 degrees, but when I popped open the 3d tool in Bing.com and saw that the views from the top of the building are actually quite exquisite and unfortunately, the only way to get that kind of view is for it to be facing with the current orientation. The southwest facing units have the best view of midtown, downtown, and Vinings, whereas the northeast facing units have the best view of Perimeter Center and Wildwood/Windy Ridge, along with the GA mountains (including Stone Mountain). Both can see Buckhead by looking over the side of the porch. The upper floors are actually the best. It's deceiving with the aerial view, however they are so high that when looking straight out at eye level in a natural way, all people will see are points miles up, not what's immediately below. You have to lean over the porch balconies and look straight down. Probably good to keep floors 2-3 open to condos since some people may be more focused on the streetscape. To make it more attractive, floors 2-3 could also have larger porches/balconies (especially 2, which has an entire ledge available to it). I think the most problematic floors are 4-8 or so (based on experimentation I did on Bing.com). That has been eating at me a little, however I think it's a detail that can be tweaked as the vision moves to a more solid concept.

Since it isn't possible to just skip floors 4-7, perhaps apartments can be split up between both buildings and put on those floors so the condos have the best views. There are probably also pricing tricks that could be used as well, or finding alternative uses for the floors, but the best option would not be to waste any space on the buildings. Therefore, I'm thinking 4-7 being apartments in both buildings may solve things. You're right that floors 2 and 3 are low enough that they won't see much of the mall roof. They could also be made more attractive by adding larger porches, and thus still potentially an option for condos. Also, if the Cumberland mall, Galleria and CID can get pulled into the picture and turned into partial stakeholders, perhaps something could be done to "greenify" the roof of the mall a little (even if it's just painting parts of it green and putting up fake trees).

Obviously, perception is everything and a good marketing initiative would need to be used to make sure people know that the views are exquisite. Also, I believe that a lot of tweaking can still be done on the tower concept to maximize views. One other important thing to think about the demographics is this will need to be targeted towards those who like hussle and bussle, busy areas, and lots of people around. The mall area gets pretty crowded at times. Different type of clientele than, for instance, what we'll see at the Riverwood 200 development, which is a quieter setting, much more like Smyrna Market Village. Many people want action, though, and not a quiet area.

My hope is that this vision drives enough excitement that the concept vision be revised by "experts" and perfected as a final concept. Usually visions change quite a bit before they arrive at final concept stage.

[cybele]

Welll from what I've heard Cousins is really committed to that area.

[CT340]

This is a nice plan. By the details given, looks like you have been really thinking this out thoroughly. However, I have just a few concerns.

1. I understand where you are coming from when you mention visibility coming south from I-285 but if you look at Lenox Mall or maybe even Perimeter, there isn't much visibility of those malls from a distance either. Sure the visibility coming south is poor. Now one can help that because on the natural hill settlement of the land, But coming north from Northside Pkwy there is some visible spots of the mall. So I don't think you should completely rule out that the mall isn't visible based on that one side.

2. Also In my opinion, Large low rise developments (malls/outlets) are to appeal mostly from a close range distance at more of a street level view. Now with a semi-large development like this plan that includes 2 tall buildings that will block the main front part of this large bi-level structure, honestly (and no offense) I think it looks a bit tacky or off and take away from the MAIN center peice (the Cumberland Mall), especially with is being in front of the Main strip (Cobb Pkwy). If you looks at Lenox, you will see that there are no high rises directly infront of the main entrance of that mall on the same lot. It's kind of like putting two 6'5 basket ball players infront of a crowd on 5th graders for a picture perfect photo.


3. I did look at the area and come up with 2 plans that could still incorporate all that you have mentioned.




Plan A: I Saw nothing wrong with putting a tower on the far right parking lot in place of the parking garage and the other tower (Akers Mill Tower) diagonally across that intersection near the Akers Mill shopping Center. With Underground parking for both, underground tunnels can connect both towers as well as parking garages, to each other along with a tunnel leading to the LRT which can have an above ground parking deck. A tunnel can also lead from the mall to the LRT also. Most retail/cafe shops can be underground through out the tunnel areas. So in a sense it would be similar to what they have in D.C. with the underground passage ways.


Plan B: This would require moving the development toward the rear, right side of the mall near Sears. However in this plan I could see both towers becoming either two twin towers, or a single double tower structure. A parking garage with both above and underground parking with a sky bridge connecting above and a tunnel connecting to it below. Retail and cafe's could be both above and below ground. Underground passages can connect to the mall and LRT(with above ground parking deck) which could be placed to the left of the towers, conveniently right across from the CCT/Marta buss drop off area along Cumberland Blvd. Also the view you would have from this point would be amazing and will add more of a dense feel with the near by hotel across the street.


Again I think your plan is very cool and well thought out.

[netdragon]

CT340: I drove by tonight on my way home from work and realized that there is one area where people can see the restaurants that this would block: The main entrance. I like your idea to move it to the side more and I am going for plan A. I hope I can just copy and paste what I have already drawn. The positive side is that the parking garage can be moved closer to ground level of the top of the hill and not obscure the view of the mall as much from the Aker's Mill/Cobb Parkway intersection. The buildings are thin enough they won't block much. Their view will also be better since they are higher up and their orientation will have a slightly more optimal view of downtown Atlanta since I'm turning them to an orientation better matching the Aberdeen in Vinings. That's also where the proposed BRT/LRT station is and it allows for underground walkways.

The downsides are:
The mall entrance will seem less urban in character again, but it will still be a marked improvement because it won't feel quite as wide open.
The front entrances of each complex don't line up anymore. Oh well, everyone will survive.
It is farther away from the Galleria pedestrian bridge and will be harder to capture convention pedestrian traffic. I'll see what I can figure out about that. I'm thinking that the biggest problem will be crossing the main entrance from Cobb Parkway to the mall. It can probably be solved by adding walkways on the other side of the Cumberland Mall Rd closer to the mall, which in my opinion should be there anyway (I always have to walk on the median when coming from the farthest parking lots and dodge cars as well when crossing Cumberland Mall Rd, grrr )

The LRT/BRT parking garage may need to be incorporated directly into the development and be part of Renaissance garage, state/county funded public parking. The closer proximity of the Spring tower garage to the mall would allow Renaissance Cumberland management to still make revenue. It can also probably be enlarged. I also realized that the valet cars from the Cumberland mall entrance can be placed in this garage instead of the middle of the parking lot where they currently are placed, freeing up some additional mall parking in this very congested parking lot.

The LRT/BRT station will need to be moved underground, which is expensive but good use of land. Also, I like your tunnel idea. If LRT/BRT is tunneled from the other side of Cobb Parkway, then that tunnel can also be used to get pedestrians across the ridiculously unwalkable Cobb Parkway where they are too far South to use the Galleria pedestrian bridge.

It does solve some of the issues about having a direct view of the Galleria and Cumberland mall roof. The roundabout also goes away, thus saving money. I will leave the pedestrian bridge between Spring and Renaissance garages so the development isn't a barrier to walkability, however I will shorten the main pedestrian bridge and remove the public access part.

It also provides more above-ground public parking for the shops on the 1st level.

[netdragon]

I updated it. Click here.

[ATLaffinity]

^ wouldn't you need a park of some kind or a blade of grass somewhere?

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

^ wouldn't you need a park of some kind or a blade of grass somewhere?

Hi. Thanks for the feedback. The green sections are landscaping (make sure to look at the 2nd sketch). Additionally, this is a high-level rough sketch to get high-level feedback and gauge excitement, so although I did render some trees and grass, some of the white areas can be grass as well and there could be some additional shrubbery, but to keep things simple and focus on mostly the structure and basic concept, I didn't go overboard with that - especially since I may need to change things based on feedback

Note that the concerns a former feedback had about the roof of the Cumberland mall is high-level feedback I did take strongly into consideration. It is helpful that the development is now closer to Aker's mill and thus further from the center of the mall (it will be staring down mostly at the lightly forested area on the other side of Cumberland Blvd one way and Interstate North the other way), however I think that if the builder can get permission from Cumberland mall to add some artificial greenery on the roof of the Cumberland mall (especially Sears), such as paint and fake trees/shrubs, that it will have some positive impact. The Galleria roof isn't as important anymore since it's now further downhill.

[themaguffin]

This is a nice (and ambitious for the specific area) plan. Another spot that has ample space and even more potential would be to do something in the Aikers Mill shopping centers (Bed Bath and Beyond, vacant Circuit City etc). So much parking which is ugly and really much of it goes unused could be transformed in to something more useful and integrated into the Cobb Energy Ctr better. Residents could walk there, to Barnes and Noble, the mall, and to the movie theater.

[joecool]

Why not something in midtown? We need more development in midtown )=

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

This is a nice (and ambitious for the specific area) plan. Another spot that has ample space and even more potential would be to do something in the Aikers Mill shopping centers (Bed Bath and Beyond, vacant Circuit City etc). So much parking which is ugly and really much of it goes unused could be transformed in to something more useful and integrated into the Cobb Energy Ctr better. Residents could walk there, to Barnes and Noble, the mall, and to the movie theater.

I wrote the owners of the Aker's Mill Plaza a year and a half ago asking why they are adding to it without any mixed use development, especially when there is mixed use planned all around it. Aker's Mill plaza frustrates me because it is so much wasted land. It's sadly that aspect that will probably make it an all-or-nothing proposition for mixed-use. E.g. it needs underground parking so it can cram in a lot of mixed-use development.

Prior to anyone doing any fancy market research, I personally believe a development next to the mall would have a greater chance of happening. That will be where light rail / BRT terminates. There's also a lack of outdoor small shop entrances there, versus Aker's mill which is already all outdoor shop entrances. Finally, people would rather live next to a mall than a shopping plaza - a mall is better for walking in any weather and more upscale.

However, I do believe if this goes in, it will spur better use of the land at Aker's Mill Plaza some time in the future.

One thing people don't realize is that the land across Cobb Parkway from the mall where Men's Warehouse is, purchased for about $8 million, will be another "large" 3 acre development. If planned at the same time, we could see an interesting synergy.

Originally Posted by joecool

Why not something in midtown? We need more development in midtown )=

Does not! Do you want it to look like downtown? Let's go for Atlanta being a more vibrant city instead of development all happening in one place.

Let's remember one thing about Cumberland. On the other end of Cumberland/Vinings is "Midtown West" (Atlanta Road - a.k.a. Marietta Blvd).

[cybele]

Originally Posted by netdragon

Does not! Do you want it to look like downtown? Let's go for Atlanta being a more vibrant city instead of development all happening in one place.

Let's remember one thing about Cumberland. On the other end of Cumberland/Vinings is "Midtown West" (Atlanta Road - a.k.a. Marietta Blvd).

Well those are good points and you are smart to be making plans during this slow time.

[WestsideATL]

The Akers Mill Plaza people definitely have a plan for that land, but seem to be waiting for market conditions to improve (for obvious reasons). I was at a public meeting over at the Cobb Chamber a few years ago and there were some renderings on the walls there that showed the kind of density they were considering. Let's just say it would fit in nicely with the density that's been established in the Galleria cluster of mid-rise office buildings.

That land, and the Riverwood area down by Cumberland Blvd, should be next big development plays in the area.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by WestsideATL

The Akers Mill Plaza people definitely have a plan for that land, but seem to be waiting for market conditions to improve (for obvious reasons).

Since this is kitty-corner Aker's mill plaza at the Cumberland mall, it should complement anything there nicely, especially if they go more traditional at Aker's Mill Plaza (like One Ivy Walk or the new Belmont Hills redevelopment).