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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2018, 12:11 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Why Greater London is the "city proper"

OK time to settle this.

- Basically the merger of the County of London with what is now outer London in 1965 was its "1898 moment"

- Even the most outlying, "suburban" district is indisputably part of London, just as Staten Island or eastern Queens is part of NYC

- There is a mayor of London who represents this entire area and is the "face" of London to the world

- The fact that it's a more decentralized or two-tier government structure with many services taken on by the boroughs is irrelevant. Montreal has boroughs with some local powers, all of them are indisputably Montreal. I'd even say Metropolitan Toronto pre-1998 was basically one city with the creation of Metro in 1953, and not the amalgamation of 1998, being its "1898 moment."

- The "suburbs" in the American sense are in the Home Counties.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2018, 1:59 AM
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I think it can be argued either way.

-The 1965 merger didn't create a city, but a regional authority.

-Having a mayor doesn't indicate a city. Some U.S. counties have mayors.

-The fact that people are indisputably part of "London" does not indicate that the GLA is a city. Everyone in LA County would be considered Angelinos; that does not make LA County a city.

-The Home Counties aren't suburbs in the U.S. sense. More like exurbs. They have significantly lower commuter share than the GLA, or typical commuter suburbs in other countries.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2018, 9:35 AM
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Greater London is of course the functioning city proper, because by dint of historical quirk the 'official' delineation is only one square mile with a population of 14,000- The City of London
(and the medieval rival to the City of Westminster next door)- centred around St Paul's Cathedral and the premier financial district.


www.thecriticalcouple.com


The problem is the Greater London catchment (8.9 million) doesn't align with the shape of the actual contiguous city (c.12-13 million), taking in large sects of countryside and missing
large tracts of urbanity, which subsequently get classed with the neighbouring counties.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydo...tion_map_2.svg


Further confusion is added because the suburbs for the city beyond that are broken up into smaller, denser islands due to the protected Green Belt land (not really a belt, more a morass
of urban-rural mix, c.14.4 million immediate 'commuter belt', and a 24 million further commuter belt, or US style metro). By satellite you'll be able to see how dense it is only by artificial highlighting (light pink and purple). This map is outdated btw, since it was taken in 1999, 7 million more people have densified it even further:


https://geology.com/world-cities/

The jury's out on whether the Green Belt legislation has resulted in protecting the countryside or just upped the scale on a massive urban-rural monster.

Last edited by muppet; Jan 18, 2018 at 2:08 PM.
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Old Posted Jan 27, 2018, 8:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think it can be argued either way.
There isn’t a consistent definition of what a city proper, urban area or metro area is. It is a culmination of historical events, politics, methodology and application that varies country to country.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
-The 1965 merger didn't create a city, but a regional authority.
More accurately it was a merger of county components that preserved the semi-independence of the City of London (which is confusingly also a county). The present New York City is also an amalgamation of New York, Bronx, Kings, Queens and Richmond counties.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
-Having a mayor doesn't indicate a city. Some U.S. counties have mayors.
The key point out of this discussion is that London doesn’t just have a mayor, it has a City Hall and the city-wide administrative bodies (covering transport, policing, etc…) found in the likes of New York.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
-The fact that people are indisputably part of "London" does not indicate that the GLA is a city. Everyone in LA County would be considered Angelinos; that does not make LA County a city.
That may be the case for LA County, but in London’s case it is underpinned by extensive identity history and city institutions. The centre of London isn’t even in the City of London.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
-The Home Counties aren't suburbs in the U.S. sense. More like exurbs. They have significantly lower commuter share than the GLA, or typical commuter suburbs in other countries.
The commuter settlements surrounding London are neither suburbs or exurbs in the US context. What makes these comparisons problematic is that the introduction of the Green Belt didn’t just suppress urban sprawl after WW2, it redirected development in and beyond the Green Belt into densification of old towns and market towns, and the creation of new towns and garden cities as detailed in the below map. These communities are connected to London by an extensive heavy rail network.

Proportion of Dwellings Built After 1945 < 50% - Light Grey | 50-75% - Yellow | 75-90% - Orange | > 90% - Red

Source: Consumer Data Research Centre - https://maps.cdrc.ac.uk/#/metrics/dw....2695/51.5243/
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 2:35 PM
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check out this:

http://mapmerizer.mikavaa.com/#9;51....se;false;false

What is the population living in each of the areas pictured?
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 2:56 PM
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Isn’t Greater London everything inside the M25, or maybe excluding Zone 6 which doesn’t use London postal codes but the borough’s they’re in instead.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 3:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think it can be argued either way.

-The 1965 merger didn't create a city, but a regional authority.

-Having a mayor doesn't indicate a city. Some U.S. counties have mayors.

-The fact that people are indisputably part of "London" does not indicate that the GLA is a city. Everyone in LA County would be considered Angelinos; that does not make LA County a city.

-The Home Counties aren't suburbs in the U.S. sense. More like exurbs. They have significantly lower commuter share than the GLA, or typical commuter suburbs in other countries.
This is all wrong.
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 3:02 PM
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I tend to think the sparse, forested sprawl of say northern Nassau county, or Basking Ridge is NYC's equivalent of a 'green belt'.

Trees are the majority of the ground cover.

IF you omit such low population, forested areas, the density of NYC grows considerably.

http://mapmerizer.mikavaa.com/#14;51...se;false;false

http://mapmerizer.mikavaa.com/#14;51...se;false;false
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 3:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I tend to think the sparse, forested sprawl of say northern Nassau county, or Basking Ridge is NYC's equivalent of a 'green belt'.

Trees are the majority of the ground cover.

IF you omit such low population, forested areas, the density of NYC grows considerably.

http://mapmerizer.mikavaa.com/#14;51...se;false;false

http://mapmerizer.mikavaa.com/#14;51...se;false;false
But it's not green belt, it's suburbia. You're cherry-picking.
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 4:24 PM
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It's suburbia in the loosest definition possible.
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I'd even say Metropolitan Toronto pre-1998 was basically one city with the creation of Metro in 1953, and not the amalgamation of 1998, being its "1898 moment."

- The "suburbs" in the American sense are in the Home Counties.
When comparing London with Toronto I usually pair Greater London with the Greater Toronto - Hamilton. London + the Home Counties I pair with the Greater Golden Horseshoe (9.5 million).

The 'City of Toronto' is the central political division over which the mayor presides but it's a rather pointless catchment area to use when determining what constitutes Toronto. The City of Toronto only has 2.9 million people while the area within the greenbelt, Greater Toronto - Hamilton, has 7.6 million people. It's this larger area that most accurately describes the continuously built up urban area. This too has its problems as it takes into account large swaths of the greenbelt where practically no one lives.

Places like Peterborough, Barrie, and Kitchener - Waterloo (outside the greenbelt) are to Toronto what places like Reading, Luton, and Milton - Keynes are to London. I have the following which suggests that London is about 19-52% bigger by population (depending on which catchment area you use).

Greater London (9.0 million) : Greater Toronto - Hamilton (7.6 million)
London + Home Counties (14.5 million) : Greater Golden Horseshoe (9.5 million)


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Last edited by isaidso; Jan 28, 2018 at 4:52 PM.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
It's suburbia in the loosest definition possible.
No, it's not. The North Shore of Long Island is very much suburbia in every sense of the word.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Greater London (9.0 million) : Greater Toronto - Hamilton (7.6 million)
London + Home Counties (14.5 million) : Greater Golden Horseshoe (9.5 million)
Good God no.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 5:31 PM
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Good God no.
And no would have sufficed. Why do you disagree? Would you leave Hamilton out of the smaller catchment area?
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 5:44 PM
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Because the question at hand is not "what is the contiguous urbanized area?"

How many Hamiltonians would say they "live in Toronto"? Very, very few I suspect.
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Isn’t Greater London everything inside the M25, or maybe excluding Zone 6 which doesn’t use London postal codes but the borough’s they’re in instead.
The M25 contains most of Greater London except for a part of the London Borough of Havering in the east, and directly borders two other London Boroughs (Hillingdon in the west and Enfield in the north). The likes of Watford and Dartford are within the confines of the M25 but not part of London. The second image in muppet’s post (#3) shows the M25 around London. Around a third of zone 6 stations reside outside of London.

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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I tend to think the sparse, forested sprawl of say northern Nassau county, or Basking Ridge is NYC's equivalent of a 'green belt'.
The Green Belt isn’t about tree cover, it was introduced to prevent urban sprawl and preserve land, whether that is rolling fields, agricultural land, forests, etc… If you refer back to my previous post I included a map which perfectly demonstrated the implications of the Green Belt on urban sprawl, it effectively stopped after WW2 which is why there is so little orange and red attached to the main urban area of London. The satellite images you posted of the areas around New York are examples of sprawl regardless of tree count.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
When comparing London with Toronto I usually pair Greater London with the Greater Toronto - Hamilton.
I don’t get the comparison between Greater London and the Greater Toronto Area other than that both share the word ’Greater’, and the presence of a Green Belt (the implementation dating half a century apart), let alone then adding Hamilton – a separate city – where you can’t even get a train to Toronto at the weekend or after 07:18 in the morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Places like Peterborough, Barrie, and Kitchener - Waterloo (outside the greenbelt) are to Toronto what places like Reading, Luton, and Milton - Keynes are to London.
I also don’t get the comparison of Peterborough, Barrie, Kitchener/Waterloo to Reading, Luton and Milton Keynes as defining the regional catchment. The Ontario settlements are beyond the Greenbelt, but have poor connectivity to Toronto. Peterborough, ON for example is a 2hr drive from Toronto and doesn’t have a rail service; the others have long journey times by road or intermittent and slow rail services. The communities around London that you refer to are around half the distance of the Ontario settlements you refer to are either within or bordered by the Green Belt, as well as having fast and frequent high-capacity services into London. If anything London’s more developed rail network enables a larger catchment.
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Old Posted Jan 28, 2018, 9:12 PM
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And no would have sufficed. Why do you disagree? Would you leave Hamilton out of the smaller catchment area?
Including Hamilton is like including Reading in London's numbers. There just isn't a Greenbelt.
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Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 12:47 AM
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I also don’t get the comparison of Peterborough, Barrie, Kitchener/Waterloo to Reading, Luton and Milton Keynes as defining the regional catchment. The Ontario settlements are beyond the Greenbelt, but have poor connectivity to Toronto. Peterborough, ON for example is a 2hr drive from Toronto and doesn’t have a rail service; the others have long journey times by road or intermittent and slow rail services. The communities around London that you refer to are around half the distance of the Ontario settlements you refer to are either within or bordered by the Green Belt, as well as having fast and frequent high-capacity services into London. If anything London’s more developed rail network enables a larger catchment.
Indeed, just 6% of Peterborough residents and 4% of Kitchener-Waterloo residents work in the GTA. They cannot be described as bedroom communities for Toronto by any means. They don't even come close to meeting US CSA criteria (already a very generous definition for metro areas).

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...NAMEE=&VNAMEF=
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Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 2:30 PM
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-The Home Counties aren't suburbs in the U.S. sense. More like exurbs. They have significantly lower commuter share than the GLA, or typical commuter suburbs in other countries.
They are not suburbs and I wouldn't say they are exurbs either, they are counties full of distinct towns and small cities of varying sizes, some of which could be described as London commuter towns, others which are definitely not.

This is the list of districts outside of London with the highest proportion of workers commuting in according to the 2011 census, I guess the figures might be slightly higher now.



And here's a map to place all those.

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Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 2:38 PM
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Until seeing that map...never realize how close Brighton & Hove was to London. Train ride seemed longer.
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