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  #941  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 10:59 PM
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Stenar Stenar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by San Diego-Honolulu View Post
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/11/tech...ies/index.html

Atlanta, Boston, Austin, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Washington DC, San Jose, and Toronto. No mention of Salt Lake City. The eight cities listed are all great options.

I think it will come down to Austin or Atlanta. I know Delta Air Lines has a corporate contract with Amazon and with Delta having a hub in Seattle and its largest hub in Atlanta, I think that definitely helps Atlanta. Also like Seattle, Atlanta has a ton of Fortune 500 companies in the area already.
This isn't a shortlist of cities from Amazon. This is one media outlet's interpretation of what cities it thinks would fit. Every news outlet has done a similar article with mostly different cities listed and a few overlaps. Salt Lake City has been listed in some articles.
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  #942  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 11:14 PM
Ironweed Ironweed is offline
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Help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by asies1981 View Post
Of the cities listed, Austin has the most limited public transit network. That could eliminate it from consideration.
As was suspected. The state officials are taking this Amazon thing very seriously. Unfortunately, they appear to aiming the wrong direction. Here is an article from an oddball publication:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...dquarters.html

I don't like this paper at all. I like the people posting ridiculous comments on it even less. Clearly, the shove is for Draper. I responded to a state legislator who is a FB acquaintance and doesn't seem to understand our point of view. Here is our dialogue thus far:

ME: Fine, but building in Lehi or Draper is a stupid idea. SLC should have the campus. Why? Sprawl, pollution and untenable traffic congestion.
Like · Reply · 2 hrs

Legislator: What about Amazon building on the old Utah State Prison land?
Like · Reply · 2 hrs

ME: Terrible idea. Once again, it would create enormous congestion in that area. Businesses like this should be located in an urban center. Downtown SLC is underdeveloped, and underutilized. Do we really want to create another major urban center, when we don't fully utilize what we already have?
Like · Reply · 36 mins · Edited

Legislator: With the FrontRunner station and the transportation corridors of I15 and Bangerter this location has district advantages over every where else in Salt Lake County exempt the InterMountain medical center
Like · Reply · 33 mins

ME: I am confused. You would rather have a completely new urban center develop in Draper which will sap the energy from downtown SLC?
Like · Reply · 28 mins

Legislator: The argument for moving the prison was that it was occupying some of the best transportation corridors in North America. Moving the prison opens that space to a better paying occupant.
Like · Reply · 25 mins

Me: I understand, however, to develop a downtown in Draper larger than SLC is not a good idea in my opinion. It will come with negative implications to SLC and the I-15 corridor. Specifically, as I had indicated earlier, Sprawl, Traffic Congestion, and pollution. I have a sneaking suspicion that legislators and the city of SLC do not get along. Is this a fair assessment?
Like · Reply · 19 mins

Legislator: I don't think that Amazon needs a "downtown" they need a campus with access to transportation, restaurants, housing, etc. I bet they don't want a downtown and all the problems that brings.
Like · Reply · 3 mins

Legislator: Salt Lake is a democratic enclave which has politics and demographics similar to every other major metropolitan area in North America. Outside of SLC, Utah is the Redest of the Red States. There is very little common ground between the two areas.
Like · Reply · Just now

Many suspicions have been confirmed. SLC and the state officials DO NOT get along. Getting the Amazon project will be difficult, but apparently even harder for SLC, unless the divine LDS church intervenes. Any other items you all would like me to point out?

Last edited by Ironweed; Sep 12, 2017 at 11:25 PM.
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  #943  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2017, 11:55 PM
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I don't think it's a good idea to go around calling peoples' ideas stupid, but I think you can dismantle every single one of his arguments for the prison site fairly easily. They're extremely weak.

"With the FrontRunner station and the transportation corridors of I15 and Bangerter this location has district advantages over every where else in Salt Lake County exempt the InterMountain medical center"

This statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Draper Frontrunner stop is over a mile away from the prison site, with nothing connecting it to the prison site. How is that an advantage? Amazon wants good transit options, and if the Frontrunner stop is the only thing there is to offer, it's a weak offer. In addition, there's no good light rail or bus access at the prison site. Significant transit investment would be needed to bring it up to par.

400 S Main, in comparison, has a Frontrunner stop within a mile, with connections between it and the stop existing by bus and rail. Also, as I've mentioned before, 3 light rail lines at the site, 14 bus routes within a block. Transit advantage far and away goes to SLC.


Now the roads argument. I-15 and Bangerter alone don't equal transportation advantages. The prison site itself has no significant infrastructure connecting to these roads that make it ready for this type of development. They would need to spend a ton of money on roads in the area in order to accommodate 8 million sq ft of office space and the type of traffic it would require. Just look at the roads that feed onto I-15 from the office parks in Lehi. They are extremely congested because those areas simply weren't ready for that kind of traffic load. Amazon says in the rfp they prefer a site that is development ready. Prison site isn't ready for development until the prison officially moves and infrastructure investment can be made. Furthermore, Bangerter and I-15 along that stretch are the most congested highways/freeways along the Wasatch Front. And so are all the roads feeding into the main highway corridors in the Sandy/Draper area. The traffic moves much more freely during peak congestion in Salt Lake City. The reason? Salt Lake City road infrastructure is far superior. And that's another huge advantage for SLC over the prison site.

"The argument for moving the prison was that it was occupying some of the best transportation corridors in North America."

Is he still talking about I-15 and Bangerter? Again, they are the most congested areas along the Wasatch Front. That's not a good argument for the prison site.

"I don't think that Amazon needs a "downtown" they need a campus with access to transportation, restaurants, housing."

Well, we've already shown transportation options are much better in SLC. There are no restaurants anywhere near the prison. And there isn't much housing either. So I'm not sure where he's headed with this. Also, it seems like he's unaware that Amazon's current campus is in downtown Seattle. It's almost as if he hasn't read the rfp.
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  #944  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 12:04 AM
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I get the Draper prison site talk. The state obviously wants very badly to develop it, especially with all the to do about moving the prison. Amazon says they want 8 million sq ft of office space on a new campus, state sees this as a perfect opportunity for a huge political win if they can land it for the prison site.

But if they would all look at the RFP for what it is, and look at the Draper prison site for what it is, there really aren't good arguments supporting the site for the new HQ. Going point by point through the RFP, Salt Lake is superior in every way to the Draper prison site. This legislator states he doesn't think Amazon is looking to deal with all the problems with downtown. Well, there is nothing in the RFP that hints at not wanting to be downtown. In fact, it basically says the opposite. And Amazon has a long history of developing in downtown.
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  #945  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 12:54 AM
Ironweed Ironweed is offline
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[QUOTE=airhero;7920137]I don't think it's a good idea to go around calling peoples' ideas stupid, but I think you can dismantle every single one of his arguments for the prison site fairly easily. They're extremely weak.

I will share your sentiments Airhero. I do think that him alluding to the big differences between state politics and the city have severely hurt both.

If an idea is stupid, I don't mind bringing up that fact.
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  #946  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 1:03 AM
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In my excitement for the 400 S Main site, I seem to have missed a very important section in the rfp that could seriously undermine my proposal for 400 S Main

Priority for Consideration (in no particular order):
Amazon will consider the following site/building categories for the Project:
1. Existing buildings of at least 500,000+ sq. ft., meeting the core requirements described above and that are expandable or have additional options for development nearby.

2. A greenfield site of approximately 100 acres certified or pad ready, with utility infrastructure in place. The sites do not have to be contiguous, but should be in proximity to each other to foster a sense of place and be pedestrian-friendly.

3. Other infill, existing buildings, including opportunities for renovation/redevelopment and greenfield sites, meeting the proximity and logistics requirements of the Project. This can also be a combination of the above.

4. Please also consider the overall proximity of the buildings at full build-out as you are making recommendations.


The moment I saw 100 acres I became concerned. I certainly don't think the site is disqualified because of this, but I am afraid Amazon people might raise their eyebrows at "Total acreage: 18 acres."

Also, does Salt Lake even have office buildings with over 500,000 square feet?
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  #947  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 2:31 AM
Utah_Dave Utah_Dave is offline
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Zions Bank builds a new headquarters downtown asap and frees up its exiting space for the 1st phase.

Win Win
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  #948  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 4:31 AM
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San Diego-Honolulu San Diego-Honolulu is offline
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You guys are missing one major aspect as to what attracts major companies to a city.

One thing that isn't being mentioned by any of you is the easy access to the city from outside the state and country that the potential Amazon second headquarters should have. I think that's why Amazon being in Seattle helps a ton. They have a big and growing international airport which has nonstop flights to a ton of cities in Europe, Asia, and even Latin America and the Middle East. That's why I think Atlanta makes the most sense. Delta has its largest hub there and it's the busiest airport in the world. And like I said, Delta happens to have most of Amazon's corporate flying. Because of Atlanta having the airport it has, I believe that is why you see companies such has Coca-Cola, Turner Broadcasting (CNN, TNT, Cartoon Network, NBA TV, Cinemax, HBO, HLN, TBS, TruTv, Adult Swim), Aflac, UPS, Home Depot, and Sun Trust in Atlanta. It would also be very easy for Amazon Prime to set up at the Atlanta airport as well. The Atlanta airport is already one of the busiest cargo airports in the country. Having access to fly nonstop to almost all the world from your city is a huge advantage. Atlanta also made some nice incentives for many Hollywood film companies to bring their business and film making to Atlanta. Atlanta knows how to entice businesses.

Just my opinion and two cents.
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  #949  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 8:23 AM
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Coca-Cola and SunTrust are in Atlanta because they were founded there before there were airplanes. Turner Broadcasting (which doesn't include HBO, is a division of Time Warner with HQ in NYC) has its offices in Atlanta because Ted Turner bought a tiny UHF station there in 1970 and grew it into a media empire. Home Depot was founded in Atlanta in 1979. It wasn't founded there because of the airport, but because the founders lived there.

Aflac isn't even headquartered in Atlanta. Aflac has its headquarters in Columbus, Georgia 2 hours away. UPS is the only company that chose to move to Atlanta around the time of the 1996 Olympics.

I'm sure Amazon already has a fulfillment center in Atlanta for Amazon Prime. That has nothing to do with a headquarters.

Dozens of cities and states have incentives to attract TV and film production, Utah included. We currently have several TV series filming in Utah and constantly have films being shot here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by San Diego-Honolulu View Post
You guys are missing one major aspect as to what attracts major companies to a city.

One thing that isn't being mentioned by any of you is the easy access to the city from outside the state and country that the potential Amazon second headquarters should have. I think that's why Amazon being in Seattle helps a ton. They have a big and growing international airport which has nonstop flights to a ton of cities in Europe, Asia, and even Latin America and the Middle East. That's why I think Atlanta makes the most sense. Delta has its largest hub there and it's the busiest airport in the world. And like I said, Delta happens to have most of Amazon's corporate flying. Because of Atlanta having the airport it has, I believe that is why you see companies such has Coca-Cola, Turner Broadcasting (CNN, TNT, Cartoon Network, NBA TV, Cinemax, HBO, HLN, TBS, TruTv, Adult Swim), Aflac, UPS, Home Depot, and Sun Trust in Atlanta. It would also be very easy for Amazon Prime to set up at the Atlanta airport as well. The Atlanta airport is already one of the busiest cargo airports in the country. Having access to fly nonstop to almost all the world from your city is a huge advantage. Atlanta also made some nice incentives for many Hollywood film companies to bring their business and film making to Atlanta. Atlanta knows how to entice businesses.

Just my opinion and two cents.
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  #950  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 2:22 PM
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You guys are way in over your heads. There is no way a small city like Salt Lake could absorb this. And I'm willing to bet Amazon already knows this and have already ruled Utah out. Plus I do think the airport will have a huge role in this, and lets be honest the Salt Lake airport is puny. My money is on a City like Atlanta or Denver to get it simply because they are superior when it comes to Airports. Plus Denver's atmosphere is very identical to Seattle, an atmosphere that is proven to be what Amazon likes and prefers. And there isn't a single place in all of Utah that comes close to having a real urban feel. Downtown Salt Lake is as small as they come and extremely underdeveloped. Sorry to come in and bust this pipe dream of yours but man you guys are really obsessing about this. And I can only imagine Amazon is just laughing at Utah if they really summit the prison site. If that does get submitted then its obvious they didn't take their requirements very seriously at all.
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  #951  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 2:58 PM
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Marvland Marvland is offline
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DRAPER PRISON MAKES NO SENSE because the time-frames make no sense. Amazon doesn't want to build their HQ@ in 2027. The prison needs to be built and the Draper site would need to be leveled, remediation completed and prepped. I also think there are a few elements that are flatly stated in the RFP that all of these articles are missing: the need for MASSIVE amounts of land, preferably adjacent. There are other sites in south valley or in combination with Lehi that might fit the criteria. Also, Provo/Orem could make a strong proposition from a tech perspective, although not from a cultural perspective. From the actual RFP, that none of these articles and the vast majority of speculators and quoted politicians appear to have read. My notes in bold:

Quote:
Building/Site Requirements: Amazon is considering greenfield sites, infill sites, existing buildings, or a combination for the Project. If existing buildings are available that can be retrofitted/expanded within an acceptable budget and time schedule, Amazon may consider this option; however, the company acknowledges that existing buildings may not be available to meet its requirements. As such, Amazon will prioritize certified or shovel-ready greenfield sites and infill opportunities with appropriate infrastructure and ability to meet the Project’s timeline and development demands. Prison site is out.
Quote:
A development-prepped site. We want to encourage states/provinces and communities to think creatively for viable real estate options, while not negatively affecting our preferred timeline (ie timeline is a big deal)
Additionally, they specifically call out a need for a 100 acre greenfield site. I think this is the major thing that nobody is looking at. Amazon cannot expand any more in Seattle as there is no more land and even if there was, it's too expensive:

Quote:
Priority for Consideration (in no particular order):
Amazon will consider the following site/building categories for the Project:
1. Existing buildings of at least 500,000+ sq. ft., meeting the core requirements described above and that are expandable or have additional options for development nearby.
2. A greenfield site of approximately 100 acres certified or pad ready, with utility infrastructure in place. The sites do not have to be contiguous, but should be in proximity to each other to foster a sense of place and be pedestrian-friendly. Here is the rub! This is the deal-breaker for large cities.
A strikes against Provo and South Valley, and a plus for Salt Lake:

Quote:
Cultural Community Fit – The Project requires a compatible cultural and community environment for its long-term success. This includes the presence and support of a diverse population, excellent institutions of higher education, local government structure and elected officials eager and willing to work with the company, among other attributes. A stable and consistent business climate is important to Amazon. Please demonstrate characteristics of this in your response. We encourage testimonials from other large companies.
A strike against flatlander, rust belt and plains cities, a plus for western cities, especially Salt Lake and Denver and some southern cities:

Quote:
Community/Quality of Life – The Project requires a significant number of employees. We want to invest in a community where our employees will enjoy living, recreational opportunities, educational opportunities, and an overall high quality of life. Tell us what is unique about your community.
With all of the above taken in consideration, I see HQ2 selection landing in one of three types of metros in this order:

1) Tertiary/secondary and major western and southern urban markets with tech scenes, excess land near the core, good colleges, outdoor recreation and strong air access like Salt Lake, Vegas, Phoenix, Sacramento, Reno, Denver, Nashville, Memphis and Charlotte.
2) Major metro areas that still have large swaths of undeveloped land like Dallas, Houston and Atlanta. These places have quality of life issues though and piss poor recreation opportunities.
3) Rust belt cites: Detroit, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cleveland.
- My sleeper pick: Minneapolis/St Paul.
- My homer pick: well DUH!

In SLC, the only parcel assemblage close to core with any where 100 acres is the Rocky Mnt Power site on North Temple. It would be an amazing fit, but there are no doubt huge environmental issues, minor zoning issues and RMP is a massive beast that moves slowly, so I'll call it a long shot, but it would be a great piece in a "split campus". It's right on Trax and a ten minute walk from the Gateway district. The other site that could be used in a split campus would be the 2200 W. corridor by the airport as there are hundreds of acres still available and shovel-ready. In concert with one of the Granary assemblages or Church owned sites, this could be the base of a strong proposal.
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  #952  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 3:10 PM
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Marvland Marvland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by San Diego-Honolulu View Post
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/11/tech...ies/index.html

Atlanta, Boston, Austin, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Washington DC, San Jose, and Toronto. No mention of Salt Lake City. The eight cities listed are all great options.

I think it will come down to Austin or Atlanta. I know Delta Air Lines has a corporate contract with Amazon and with Delta having a hub in Seattle and its largest hub in Atlanta, I think that definitely helps Atlanta. Also like Seattle, Atlanta has a ton of Fortune 500 companies in the area already.
Edited: No land in Boston or DC, San Jose has seen some tech outflight and only has access to excess land on the south bay (read: army corp of engineers three times) and Coyote Valley. I can imagine SJ is very expensive too. These all have limited outdoor recreation or quality of life attributes other than cultural in any of those cites. Read the actual RFP instead of blanket speculation articles. It says a lot. The RFP is very site-specific, meaning it's not a "this city is rad" popularity contest. They are asking for actual proposals with sites named. I do think Atlanta has a very strong chance if you ignore the quality of life requirement.

Last edited by Marvland; Sep 13, 2017 at 3:21 PM.
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  #953  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 3:14 PM
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To some other possible development news:

Apartment vacancy rates in Salt Lake area at all-time low
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-time-low.html

Quote:
SALT LAKE CITY — For the eighth straight year, vacancy rates for rental apartments in the Salt Lake metro area have declined — down to the lowest rates ever.

New research from Cushman & Wakefield indicates that the apartment market is currently at historic levels with mid-year figures showing the vacancy rate of just 2.6 percent — the lowest ever reported, according to Kip Paul, executive director of investment sales at Cushman & Wakefield's Salt Lake office.
Quote:
For the first time in recent history, he said, midsize apartment communities — 100 units to 250 units — are driving market conditions in Salt Lake County. That specific market segment has the highest rental prices per square foot and the lowest vacancies with an average rate per square foot of $1.25 and a vacancy rate of 2.2 percent, he noted.
Quote:
If current population trends continue over the next few years, Paul said there might be a possible change in the kind of rental development that could come to the area.

"The next step that (could) occur is a steel-structured building," he said. "They'll go over the (typical) five-level (wood) frame construction, and you could very well see a 15-story apartment complex built here soon."

He added that some developers have already begun discussing the potential for a mid-rise apartment building in the not-so-distant future.
So more good news about the vacancy rates and the possibility of taller apartment buildings in the near future.

Next:

Salt Lake convention industry still viable, leaders say
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...aders-say.html

Quote:
"Not having the hotel makes finding someone to replace Outdoor Retailer harder," Beck said. "The idea behind the convention center hotel was to allow us to do more meetings that are larger in size because that's our Achilles' heel — not having an adequate supply of convention-quality hotel rooms in proximity to the convention center."

McAdams echoed that sentiment and said he will continue to work hard to strike a deal to get a headquarter hotel built in the not-so-distant future.

"To have a convention headquarters hotel located adjacent to the Salt Palace is a missing ingredient that we find as we're trying to attract new conventions and retain existing conventions," he said. "We were losing many conventions every year because (clients) said the reason they didn't come here is because we didn't have a headquarters hotel like many of our competitors do."

The notion of a large convention hotel has been an issue of debate in the state Legislature for years. He says this latest development of losing Outdoor Retailer will not hamper those efforts, but there are many details still to be ironed out.

"We're still working on it. We're still in negotiations with a developer," McAdams said. "They are trying to put a proposal that will work and be responsible to the taxpayer to help us have the facilities to attract new conventions."
Negotiations still ongoing and nothing dropped. Location is still in flux. Additional items that have been discussed is the inclusion of additional residential (apartments/condos), retail, restaurants and more.

Hopefully we will hear more about this soon.

Overall, mostly decent but not over the top on news but both stories lead to changes in the near future. One for Apartments and the other on the CCH.
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  #954  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 3:41 PM
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I honestly don't think Salt Lake City will get HQ2. But it's fun to think about and it is a huge opportunity and we would be crazy not to make a push for it. If we go with our best offer possible, I think Salt Lake could at least be considered.

Also, the airport thing isn't as much of a disadvantage for Salt Lake as you guys are making it out to be. If Amazon has a corporate contract with Delta, I think a Delta hub makes a lot of sense for them. There are daily direct flights on Delta to every important city in the US. Numerous flights on multiple airlines to the most important cities. Not to mention the airport is currently investing 3 billion dollars on a full rebuild and when finished, there will be room for expansion. Everything looks bright on the airport front for SLC. But you're right that SLC is inferior to Denver and Atlanta when it comes to the airport. I don't think it will have much of an impact on Amazon choosing those cities over SLC.

This is what it says in the RFP about airports:

Proximity to International airport:
Within approx. 45 minutes

Travel time to an international airport with daily direct flights to Seattle, New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and Washington, D.C. is also an important consideration.

That's it. Multiple airlines fly daily direct to all those cities. Delta alone has multiple daily direct flights to each of them. Beyond that, it almost seems as if they are more concerned with how far away the airport is from the site than anything. As has been mentioned, the airport is 8-10 minutes away, and there is hardly ever congestion along that route. That's attractive.

Last thing, so a person who somehow lives in both Seattle and Austin creates an account just so he can dog on SLC and agree with a guy who somehow lives in both San Diego and Honolulu. Does this happen on every thread? Because it's ridiculous. Maybe we're just fun to mess with.
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  #955  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 4:16 PM
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It seems like EP Design and many other Salt Lakers dropped off the face of the planet
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  #956  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by twig View Post
It seems like EP Design and many other Salt Lakers dropped off the face of the planet
Yeah, because this forum sucks now.
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  #957  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 4:29 PM
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^^ I agree, this page does seem to have a tendency to self destruct. But I feel it has been doing a lot better since the mods cleaned it up last. I believe all the amazon talk (good and bad) both have good reasoning behind the points being made. Overall it is fun to fantasize though
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  #958  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 4:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvland View Post
In SLC, the only parcel assemblage close to core with any where 100 acres is the Rocky Mnt Power site on North Temple. It would be an amazing fit, but there are no doubt huge environmental issues, minor zoning issues and RMP is a massive beast that moves slowly, so I'll call it a long shot, but it would be a great piece in a "split campus". It's right on Trax and a ten minute walk from the Gateway district. The other site that could be used in a split campus would be the 2200 W. corridor by the airport as there are hundreds of acres still available and shovel-ready. In concert with one of the Granary assemblages or Church owned sites, this could be the base of a strong proposal.
Yeah the North Temple corridor isn't exactly greenfield. I keep trying to justify the 400 S Main area, but 100 acres is a lot. Getting Ken Garff, Mark Miller, and the Sears lot involved, you're up to about 50-60 acres total, but then there are a lot of parties involved, and I'm not sure the car dealerships are keen on moving. Where could they possibly move? Maybe Rio Grande area could work. UTA owns a lot of land around those parcels. I shot it down earlier but there is a lot of land to build, though not 100 acres. Would probably involve some cleanup of the parcels.

Salt Lake simply doesn't have large swaths of land that big ready to be built on. I didn't think lack of contiguous parking lots would ever be a problem for SLC. Lots of cities have them right near their urban cores. Denver has at least 100 acres right next to their downtown. Not a bad place, imo, though it would require some serious infrastructure improvements. Speer is a mess as it is. You can't direct all Amazon traffic in that direction.

Also, that is all great news Makid. Not so much the convention stuff, since there still seems to be a lot to work out, but I can't believe how low the vacancy rates are, especially with all the new apartments that have come online.
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  #959  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 5:00 PM
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I-15
I-215
I-80
North Temple
Redwood Rd
TRAX
Airport
Jordan River Corridor/trail system
Adjacent to Fair Park



Last edited by Old&New; Sep 13, 2017 at 5:11 PM.
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  #960  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2017, 6:48 PM
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What if we just close down the refineries and all that other nasty crap off Beck street and let them use that land. I think north temple would be better used for residential retail mix.... I would love to see the refineries go.
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