Vancouver, "Seriously Unaffordable"

[Canadian Mind]

How is Vancouver supposed to support itself if it doesn't allow room for the population to breed? Look at countries like Japan and the EU and whats goign on with them because they don't have enough kids to support the populations. Do we wat that happening on a smaller, local scale in Vancouver? Vancouvers density and growth should be encouraged to develop for everyone, not just single people and couples.

[DKaz]

I know quite a few families who live in Vancouver. I don't think it's so much the cost of rent, but owning a car in a city where you can get by 95% of the time without one, and rent a CAN or Zip Car when you do need one. Living downtown you likely don't need to even take transit most of the time. There are huge cost savings there to using your own two feet to get around over half the time, not to mention health benefits.

[Metro-One]

I live in Europe, and I think what you say is very valid. However, one of the biggest differences between Canada and Europe is that there are many more rental subsidies, and child-care subsidies and social programs in Europe than in Canada, rendering life in rental apartments less precarious and more affordable here than in Canada.

Also, I believe that in Ontario, there is "pay what you earn" program, adjusting rent to the level of your salary. This is especially important in Toronto, where wages range from astronomically high to working-poor, and accomodation is at a premium, a harbinger for Vancouver.

Here in BC, if you can't pay up, you're out on your butt.

This leads into socio-poitical issues, but one that is inextricable from providing affordable housing. Provincial governments past and present seem to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to this, but it will have to be addressed in the near future, unless Vancouver is to turn into one of the many cities where a large per centage of the populace is either homeless, or living in insalubrious conditions.

This is where the provincial government should be stepping in and playing a role . . . . . but . . . true to form, isn't.

This hit the nail on the head! Unfortunately you are preaching to a generally conservative / selfish crowd on this forum, trofirhen.

As demonstrated by this comment....

Why should people that want to raise families have a right to live in Vancouver?

All I can say is "Wow!"

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

This hit the nail on the head! Unfortunately you are preaching to a generally conservative / selfish crowd on this forum, trofirhen.

I would say that the crowd is not so much conservative/selfish as young and inexperienced. I would bet that the most active and vocal of us here do not have kids, are still in school and are single...otherwise you would not be here in the first place

[ckkelley]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

Why should Singles or childless couples be the only ones that have the right to live in Vancouver? Thats a little asinine if you ask me. If this city is truly going to be as livable as its said to be its going to have to cater to everyone, not just non-breeders.

Singles and "non-breeders" don't have that right either. I don't think anyone has the right to live in Vancouver.

So I guess the only way to do it is to rent or purchase property. Not everyone can live where they want to. I want to live in Coal Harbour but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[NetMapel]

I think you guys mistook the quote "Why should people that want to raise families have a right to live in Vancouver?". The way I interpreted it, is that the city should not cater to any specific group of people. If you are single, it rather make sense for you to live in a smaller place such as a condo suite. If you are a family that needs more space, there are plenty to go around too, especially in the suburb.

The whole "right" thing makes me think of those who moved in to condos close to Robson or Granville and then demand those businesses to reduce their noise or something because they have a right to live near those streets. Of course, most of us here will say that's pretty BS because nobody should impose their rights onto others. In the end, Vancouver is just a really expensive city to live in whether you have a house, condo or townhouses here. There is just a lot of demand to live here and I don't think the city wants to discourage people from wanting to move in.

PS: "non-breeder" ? For some reason, that word just sounds so negative...

[WBC]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

PS: "non-breeder" ? For some reason, that word just sounds so negative...

Is "Dead End" any better?

[WBC]

The fact remains that prices here are high because we all collectively created them as such. I don't think that myth of the rich foreigner holds up. After all, we are not the only place where rich come to visit. The locals however engage in a never ending merry-go-round of upgrading their places and buying and selling on a whim (i.e. "I have a kid thus I need a house" is a popular argument, or the "I make 5K more a year thus now I can afford a 2 bedroom place"). This is more than ever supported by historically low rates that allow people to borrow $100K for $300 a month making it possible to purchase overpriced real estate. Once that is gone - like it happened briefly last year when rates went higher, credit tightened and 40 year no money down mortgages were banned - the market deflated a bit. So IMHO the market will go down once you see the open mortgage rates return to 6-7%. If that does not happen - then the bubble will continue...

[ckkelley]

Originally Posted by WBC

Is "Dead End" any better?

lol!

[delboy]

Originally Posted by ckkelley

What do you figure RE prices will be in 2012? I gather you think they'll be much lower? What's your buy-in price?

Maybe you already own.

No idea what prices will be. I don't buy the 3 x income argument I think its outdated and accept it will always be higher here . I do think we are in for a correction but I doubt it will be a collapse as some would hope for.

Its not only about price with me, its also about trying to time a purchase that is not at the height of a bubble as we are now. If I felt that we were n't overinflated, I would accept prices for what they are and make my decision accordingly. However to buy now (for first timers) in this market is really rather silly.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by WBC

The fact remains that prices here are high because we all collectively created them as such. I don't think that myth of the rich foreigner holds up. After all we are not the only place where rich place come to visit. The locals however engage in a never ending merry go round of upgrading their places and buying and selling on a whim (i.e. I have a kid thus I need a house is a popular argument or the I make 5K more a year thus now I can afford a 2 bedroom place). This is more then ever supported by historically low rates that allow people to borrow $100K for $300 a month making it possible to purchase overprices real estate. Once that is gone - like it happened briefly last year when rates went higher, credit tightened and 40 year no money down mortgages were banned the market deflated a bit. So IMHO the market will go down once you see the open mortgage rates return to 6-7%. If that does not happen - then the bubble will continue...

Yes I agree.

[MR. Cosmopolitan]

Maybe Vancouver should "spread out" the density by increasing the size of the middle density ring that surrounds the downtown, that could be the more family friendly area of the downtown.

[metroXpress]

Single family detached houses in the West End are all over 1-M now,,,some reaching to 2, 3-M. You can buy the house...but the property taxes each year hunts down at you.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by delboy

I don't buy the 3 x income argument I think its outdated and accept it will always be higher here.

Why is it outdated? I would argue that it is temporarily outdated, but some day it will make a comeback. The fact is that many people can 'afford' Vancouver because they did not have the present barriers to entry. A majority of the homeowners in Vancouver did not purchase their first home in this bubble. People that had property before the bubble have greatly profited which has allowed them to live well above their income level. The property bubble has been a jackpot for preexisting homeowners.

Eventually, generational overturn in the market will stress the market. Pegging the inflection point of this event is rather impossible, but it will happen. I'm not saying the market will collapse, but the current course seems rather unsustainable.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Why is it outdated? I would argue that it is temporarily outdated, but some day it will make a comeback. The fact is that many people can 'afford' Vancouver because they did not have the present barriers to entry. A majority of the homeowners in Vancouver did not purchase their first home in this bubble. People that had property before the bubble have greatly profited which has allowed them to live well above their income level. The property bubble has been a jackpot for preexisting homeowners.

Eventually, generational overturn in the market will stress the market. Pegging the inflection point of this event is rather impossible, but it will happen. I'm not saying the market will collapse, but the current course seems rather unsustainable.

Yes I agree, but I doubt we will see 3 x income as a price - 3 x 60,000 (family income) is around 180,000 - this may be a Canadian average but not for Vancouver.

[duener]

Isn't the point of EcoDensity partially to address this problem? Most of Vancouver is composed of single family detached homes. So by rezoning all that land to allow increased density you can "create" space for more families.

Developers could level whole streets and put in charming row houses with narrower back yards for families to live in. Most people don't seem to make use of their sideyards anyway. That's how most older cities have done it.

I bet the city could easily double the number of houses in Vancouver by dividing lots and adding coach houses.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by duener

Isn't the point of EcoDensity partially to address this problem? Most of Vancouver is composed of single family detached homes. So by rezoning all that land to allow increased density you can "create" space for more families.

Developers could level whole streets and put in charming row houses with narrower back yards for families to live in. Most people don't seem to make use of their sideyards anyway. That's how most older cities have done it.

I bet the city could easily double the number of houses in Vancouver by dividing lots and adding coach houses.

Absolutely spot on. You and I should run for city council and implement this sort of vision for Vancouver. the high-rise condo is not the only way to add density to a city.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by MR. Cosmopolitan

If a family can't afford to live in Vancouver they could rent a unit that its cheaper that its market price thanks to the social housing projects that are already in place in this city.

its very hard to get into social housing - if it were only that easy

[cabotp]

First off everyone (single, married, kids, no kids etc.) who currently live in Metro Vancouver, cannot live in the city of Vancouver proper. There is no where near the number of dwelling units needed. Unless people in the City of Vancouver were willing to allow another 3-5 people to live with them. More people per dwelling unit. Now you could increase the number of dwelling units. But all the land is pretty much used up. So that means that to build anymore dwelling units in the City of Vancouver. You either have the build a condominium, townhouse, Apartments, or detached houses with multi dwellings in them. But for a family that wants to raise some kids and live in a single detached house in the city of Vancouver. If they can't afford to purchase the house. There is nothing that can be done other than to live in one of the suburbs. Nothing mean is meant by that but it is reality.

As for how people are affording to live in the City of Vancouver.

1) they have lived here already for a long time. They have paid off the mortgage, and the only expense is the property taxes and other utilities. And I'd guess that is what a majority of people in Vancouver are like.

2) Another way people are affording a house in Vancouver. Is they have split the mortage with other family members or possibly friends. They may live with room mates or they may live alone as there mortage partners are just in it for the investment.

3) They have decided to forgo the detached house lifestyle in order to live in the City of Vancouver.

4) And this one is related to 2) They bought a house and created a secondary suite. And then rented that suite out to bring in some income to help with mortgage.

[YYCguys]

In Canada, if someone is interested in buying a property that has a secondary suite or the potential for same, can one apply for a mortgage with the intention of rent subsidising their mortgage? I believe this may be the case in the US and hope it is too here.