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  #1061  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 1:23 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Hello Fellow Stadium Supporters!
I'm new and playing catch up on the previous posted info here. There is a couple of things that I would like to comment on from what I have read and heard in the past.

There seems to be a general "we would love to have a Stadium but...."

My feeling is remove the negative issues or deal with them and whats left is the positives.....

If a Stadium is going to be built in the next here is what needs to be resolved.

a) Cost...most Stadiums have a huge public funding formula, so the public wants to know the benefit to the expense. It becomes personal when a persons tax dollars a being spent. So keeping the cost/benefit understandable is essential for public support!

b) Location...Halifax is the key location. The Stadium will require revenue. That means population to buy tickets. The immediate market is 100km (1 hr drive) from the Stadium... the Halifax number would be around 500,000. So any event that wanted to sellout a 25,000 seat stadium would need to draw 5% of the population.

c) Timing!....many people might say the window has closed! Moncton has a stadium now! My argument would be the ability to draw over time (see b). Huskies Stadium was built for the 67 Canada Games to seat +/- 10,000 with temp seating. It supported a Preseason CFL game with about the same seating but....one would need a much larger capacity on a permanent basis to financially support event like concerts and CFL just like the new Moncton location would need to do.....so both Halifax and Moncton are pretty much at a similar junction.

d) Usefulness....nobody likes waste. A couple of points fall in here....certainly the prospect of national exposure, possible CFL, other sports like Soccer etc...Concerts are all things that make good use of a stadium.....but in a nutshell a stadium solves a few problems...one the use of the commons for concerts...we have no permanent facility for larger events....so what other functions other than the possible CFL (8 -10 games) could draw? What makes the stadium useful? Does anyone remember the Pope coming to Halifax...how about a public address by the Queen...or maybe Billy Graham, or attracting an outdoor NHL game......I think there many events that would be more willing to make use of a sizeable stadium.

e) Location within NS.....yeah its an issue....everyone has ideas. Traffic in residential areas is a big issue...20 -30,000 ppl moving into and out of anywhere in HRM is difficult at the best of events. Here is my thoughts....there is a quarry along the 102 by Kearney Lake Rd. close to the wilderness area the PC Govt set aside a couple of years. Its not ideal but hey the excavation already done is a big bonus. Lots of land for outside parking and highway access! I would say if one traveled from downtown it would take about 20mins....Micmac Mall/McKay Bridge/Joe Howe/102 I'd say about the same....Truro an hour...Bridgewater an hour....I do also believe there would need to be a public park and ride type of service from downtown areas....but hey lets not kid ourselves....dont you think the hotels would be getting packages together that would include some transport service....?

So here it is ....we need $50,000,000 and the public pressure to get it going now!
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  #1062  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 1:24 PM
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You continue to do great work Fenwick. Hopefully some day in the not too distant future the city of Halifax will seriously consider building a stadium. As I have stated before in this thread I am a huge CFL fan and would love to some day be able to see a CFL franchise in Halifax. If Moncton can accomplish what they have then why can't Halifax? It's more than just a little bit frustrating for me.
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  #1063  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Hello Fellow Stadium Supporters!
I'm new and playing catch up on the previous posted info here. There is a couple of things that I would like to comment on from what I have read and heard in the past.

There seems to be a general "we would love to have a Stadium but...."

My feeling is remove the negative issues or deal with them and whats left is the positives.....

If a Stadium is going to be built in the next here is what needs to be resolved.

a) Cost...most Stadiums have a huge public funding formula, so the public wants to know the benefit to the expense. It becomes personal when a persons tax dollars a being spent. So keeping the cost/benefit understandable is essential for public support!

b) Location...Halifax is the key location. The Stadium will require revenue. That means population to buy tickets. The immediate market is 100km (1 hr drive) from the Stadium... the Halifax number would be around 500,000. So any event that wanted to sellout a 25,000 seat stadium would need to draw 5% of the population.

c) Timing!....many people might say the window has closed! Moncton has a stadium now! My argument would be the ability to draw over time (see b). Huskies Stadium was built for the 67 Canada Games to seat +/- 10,000 with temp seating. It supported a Preseason CFL game with about the same seating but....one would need a much larger capacity on a permanent basis to financially support event like concerts and CFL just like the new Moncton location would need to do.....so both Halifax and Moncton are pretty much at a similar junction.

d) Usefulness....nobody likes waste. A couple of points fall in here....certainly the prospect of national exposure, possible CFL, other sports like Soccer etc...Concerts are all things that make good use of a stadium.....but in a nutshell a stadium solves a few problems...one the use of the commons for concerts...we have no permanent facility for larger events....so what other functions other than the possible CFL (8 -10 games) could draw? What makes the stadium useful? Does anyone remember the Pope coming to Halifax...how about a public address by the Queen...or maybe Billy Graham, or attracting an outdoor NHL game......I think there many events that would be more willing to make use of a sizeable stadium.

e) Location within NS.....yeah its an issue....everyone has ideas. Traffic in residential areas is a big issue...20 -30,000 ppl moving into and out of anywhere in HRM is difficult at the best of events. Here is my thoughts....there is a quarry along the 102 by Kearney Lake Rd. close to the wilderness area the PC Govt set aside a couple of years. Its not ideal but hey the excavation already done is a big bonus. Lots of land for outside parking and highway access! I would say if one traveled from downtown it would take about 20mins....Micmac Mall/McKay Bridge/Joe Howe/102 I'd say about the same....Truro an hour...Bridgewater an hour....I do also believe there would need to be a public park and ride type of service from downtown areas....but hey lets not kid ourselves....dont you think the hotels would be getting packages together that would include some transport service....?

So here it is ....we need $50,000,000 and the public pressure to get it going now!
Welcome ATL Stadium!

The key is to get the public on board with a new stadium project. If enough people contact their elected representatives showing support for a stadium project then something will happen.
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  #1064  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 2:24 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post

e) Location within NS.....yeah its an issue....everyone has ideas. Traffic in residential areas is a big issue...20 -30,000 ppl moving into and out of anywhere in HRM is difficult at the best of events. Here is my thoughts....there is a quarry along the 102 by Kearney Lake Rd. close to the wilderness area the PC Govt set aside a couple of years. Its not ideal but hey the excavation already done is a big bonus. Lots of land for outside parking and highway access! I would say if one traveled from downtown it would take about 20mins....Micmac Mall/McKay Bridge/Joe Howe/102 I'd say about the same....Truro an hour...Bridgewater an hour....I do also believe there would need to be a public park and ride type of service from downtown areas....but hey lets not kid ourselves....dont you think the hotels would be getting packages together that would include some transport service....?

So here it is ....we need $50,000,000 and the public pressure to get it going now!
Welcome ATL Stadium. We needs lots of active supporters (let city officials know that this is a priority for the HRM).

Regarding a location, a committee should be set up by the city to select a site. All possibilities should be considered and then work out a system of pluses and minuses to select the best site. Technical considerations, transit, cost, etc. all have to be considered.
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  #1065  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Welcome ATL Stadium. We needs lots of active supporters (let city officials know that this is a priority for the HRM).

Regarding a location, a committee should be set up by the city to select a site. All possibilities should be considered and then work out a system of pluses and minuses to select the best site. Technical considerations, transit, cost, etc. all have to be considered.
Groups like Football Nova Scotia need to back the effort and provide exposure perhaps through billboard advertising. A lot of support/exposere should be gained over the next month. It still surprises me that the media doesn't run with it.

Football Nova Scotia:
http://www.footballnovascotia.ca/index.php?page=113
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  #1066  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 5:08 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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I agree but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Welcome ATL Stadium. We needs lots of active supporters (let city officials know that this is a priority for the HRM).

Regarding a location, a committee should be set up by the city to select a site. All possibilities should be considered and then work out a system of pluses and minuses to select the best site. Technical considerations, transit, cost, etc. all have to be considered.
Fenwick
The HRM will never go this alone....and that lends strength to what is needed. Nobody goes it alone...we need Feds, Prov and HRM to back this. I dont view this issue as a HRM issue at all.....
A committee of the municipality is what has Hamilton in knotts right now....a stadium will need a lot of stake holders at the table......Universities, Govt, Corp Sponsors, CFL or an owner viewpoint even if its apotential owner, a guy like Harold MacKay for concert promo etc etc.... It would not likely ever be the "best" site....there would never the perfect site...only one that would be a Go! (with all its pluses and minuses)
I just cant see HRM council or city planners even being the major force in picking a site.
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  #1067  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 5:12 PM
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I agree with that.
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  #1068  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 5:14 PM
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That looks great!! Nice job!
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  #1069  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 5:19 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Scared Stiff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Groups like Football Nova Scotia need to back the effort and provide exposure perhaps through billboard advertising. A lot of support/exposere should be gained over the next month. It still surprises me that the media doesn't run with it.

Football Nova Scotia:
http://www.footballnovascotia.ca/index.php?page=113
I think in general there is a fear of failure....nobody likes the build it and they will come kind of statement.....but the opposite of that is events/CFL/ Vanier/ Soccer will never come unless there is a venue large enough that the financial dollars work. Football NS would only be one aspect of the total stakeholders that would need to be at the table and that is a big problem, because nobody wants to stand on their own and say they need a stadium......with hand held out for the dollars...
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  #1070  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 5:21 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Maybe we need a starting point of a meeting to list stakeholders and start soliciting support....how does SOBEY STADIUM sound to you?
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  #1071  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 5:35 PM
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Fenwick - I think the design works well; it's expandable (looks to the future) and looks pretty good for a small start off.

As I've mentioned before; the best thing to do in order to get this team off the ground and moving is to seek a lot of corporate sponsors; before approaching any levels of government for funding assistance. I agree with the idea of selling off the naming rights to the stadium (Sobeys, Aliant or any other local business). Also, getting sponsorship from other local or national companies that may have a low market share in Nova Scotia would be the biggest opportunity for financing. For example, I believe Telus Mobility still has a low market share - they could be approached and may be quite on board with sponsorship.
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  #1072  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Stadium Design

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Originally Posted by terrynorthend View Post
That looks great Fenwick! You've obviously put a lot of work into that.
I love that design.....obviously a lot of work indeed!
The open roof is great and the roofed area over the stands suits well for some maritime windy wet weather...the sunken lower stands is difficult given most of Hfx areas are not flat nor easily excavated without those big sticks of TNT. That means big money in construct....if this were the prairies or the valley maybe....or an already excavated site....I wonder how much it would cost to buy MICMAC Mall....???
Anyways.....point is peninsula Hfx is rock....solid rock! They do say Hfx rock makes for great swimming pools.....can you imagine pumping out that sucker....
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  #1073  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 6:34 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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Location Location!

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I think the best site is on the large field by Robie Street (Gorsebrook I guess). The site is close to Dal, SMU, and the downtown. Putting it near Young Street would likely also work, and would provide a good impetus for some other improvements.

I dislike the idea of putting the stadium in the suburbs somewhere next to a highway. That kind of development promotes sprawl, leads to less interesting venues, and is not necessarily even any better from an accessibility point of view. The Common worked fine for a concert with 50,000 people with very little purpose-built infrastructure - lots of people can just walk, the city's easily served by transit, and there are plenty of nearby roads and parking spaces.

Supporting a CFL franchise in Halifax seems like a foregone conclusion, given a stadium. Not sure it's worth the public funds, however.
Location is a huge issue......
Personally I do not favour a peninsula location....HRM rarely experiences 20,000 or 30,000 or 40,000 ppl entering or leaving a stadium at once. I can tell you it would be a very big disruption given the limited road structure in place now.....and Yes we have all see it work for the few times HRM as had the big events.....but everyone leaves with it for the day....can you imagine for a minute every second weekend for a CFL game plus summer/fall concerts!
If you want to help a successful team like a CFL ownership group....they have to sell tickets....after the first game and for many years......

Just to comment on the public funds aspect.....CFL ownership would be a leasing arrangement. The Stadium would have to be built with totally public money....then you need private/corp sponsorship for naming, advertising, running concessions, parking and lease the facilities out to CFL, Universities, Promoters for concerts etc etc....that how it all works.....So in a nutshell the operations would be supported the rentals, the renters make money by selling tickets....and we the public buy the tickets to see the great and wondurous events that would take place there.....
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  #1074  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2010, 9:19 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Although the first stage of a sunken stadium looks like a giant swimming pool, it is not really much different then sunken parking lots and buildings such as the Trillium (these are actually much deeper). These all need to be graded properly and have adequate drainage. I wonder if the rocky soil in the Halifax area is being overestimated as an obstacle. Many areas are shale which would be much easier to excavate than granite. There are long, wide excavated highways throughout the Halifax County and a depth of 21 feet really isn't that deep. To build a stadium from the ground up will also require excavation and leveling. To me, an ideal site would be one that is at a slight incline, with one end about 40 - 50 feet higher than the other. Then the excavated soil (which might be shale) wouldn't have to be trucked away; it would just be moved around the site. One end might be sunken and the other end might be at street level or even above street level.

Building on solid ground might even be cheaper than building on soft ground since solid ground won't require deep piles throughout the excavation site to support a huge stadium on soft ground. I would think that there would also be fewer problems with settling. Personally, I would prefer to have a home built on the shale around Halifax than on soft ground. I have a few cracks in my basement wall from my home settling on soft ground.

Whether an eventual stadium is sunken or built from the ground up will depend on the site selected. However, many new stadiums are being built with the lower level sunken (InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Hamilton's Pan-Am proposal, Winnipeg's new stadium, Ford Field in Detroit, the new Dallas Cowboy's stadium and many others). This cuts way down on stadium ramps required to funnel large numbers of people from high up in a stadium to exits. It also cuts down on exterior support structures.

Last edited by fenwick16; Aug 27, 2010 at 11:34 AM. Reason: The post was too long
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  #1075  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2010, 2:33 PM
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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Although the first stage of a sunken stadium looks like a giant swimming pool, it is not really much different then sunken parking lots and buildings such as the Trillium (these are actually much deeper). These all need to be graded properly and have adequate drainage. I wonder if the rocky soil in the Halifax area is being overestimated as an obstacle. Many areas are shale which would be much easier to excavate than granite. There are long, wide excavated highways throughout the Halifax County and a depth of 21 feet really isn't that deep. To build a stadium from the ground up will also require excavation and leveling. To me, an ideal site would be one that is at a slight incline, with one end about 40 - 50 feet higher than the other. Then the excavated soil (which might be shale) wouldn't have to be trucked away; it would just be moved around the site. One end might be sunken and the other end might be at street level or even above street level.

Building on solid ground might even be cheaper than building on soft ground since solid ground won't require deep piles throughout the excavation site to support a huge stadium on soft ground. I would think that there would also be fewer problems with settling. Personally, I would prefer to have a home built on the shale around Halifax than on soft ground. I have a few cracks in my basement wall from my home settling on soft ground.

Whether an eventual stadium is sunken or built from the ground up will depend on the site selected. However, many new stadiums are being built with the lower level sunken (InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Hamilton's Pan-Am proposal, Winnipeg's new stadium, Ford Field in Detroit, the new Dallas Cowboy's stadium and many others). This cuts way down on stadium ramps required to funnel large numbers of people from high up in a stadium to exits. It also cuts down on exterior support structures.
The stadium design as stated before I like....under ground parking lots have covered tops and directions for water to flow away from the building site....an open top stadium would not.
One other point is cost...ie: Winnipeg is looking at a combo shopping/office/ stadium in the hundreds of millions.......kind of a difficult comparison.
I would love to review the possible site around HRM to see whats available for purchase or already owned by the public purse. I do know of a private site of a quarry along the 102 that in my mind has great potential. Very similar to the location that someone else posted close to Bayers Lake Shopping district.

Anyway... I think we can spend way too much time on the design and sites at this point we all need to push for the public approval and political or private will to make this happen sooner rather than later.
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  #1076  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2010, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
The stadium design as stated before I like....under ground parking lots have covered tops and directions for water to flow away from the building site....an open top stadium would not.
One other point is cost...ie: Winnipeg is looking at a combo shopping/office/ stadium in the hundreds of millions.......kind of a difficult comparison.
I would love to review the possible site around HRM to see whats available for purchase or already owned by the public purse. I do know of a private site of a quarry along the 102 that in my mind has great potential. Very similar to the location that someone else posted close to Bayers Lake Shopping district.

Anyway... I think we can spend way too much time on the design and sites at this point we all need to push for the public approval and political or private will to make this happen sooner rather than later.
The Winnipeg stadium portion is only estimated to be $120 million and it seems to be a relatively elaborate design.

The idea of using a quarry is a good one if it is not in too isolated a location. 30 - 35 feet deep would be enough to have seats in a bowl for 25,000 people; with an additional 25,000 on the field there would be room for 50,000 for concerts. The big advantage to such a design is that everybody enters from the top (cutting down on costs for ramps and stairways). If additional seats are required then they are just added around the top of the bowl. The exterior wall would be relatively low and a cantilever roof over all the seats would have a relatively short overhang (around 70 feet).

If a sunken bowl is on a hill or any incline then if should not fill with water unless drain pipes are omitted. The field would have to be built with adequate drainage and graded so that the water will drain towards the drain pipes going down the hill. Every day I drive through an underpass that is sunken under train tracks and it doesn't fill with water. I am not saying that this is not a consideration but any stadium will have to be built with proper drainage. So if building a stadium in a natural depression, such as a quarry, is considered then an experienced engineer and experienced landscapers will be required. I would love to see such a stadium in the Halifax area, surrounded by landscaping.

Here are a couple well know sunken bowl type stadiums:

Yale Bowl: (source: http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Ivy/Yale/index.htm )


A 2500 year old one (source:http://www.odysseyadventures.ca/trip...greecetrip.htm ) . This is the Epidaurus theater in Greece and is still in use today - http://www.indigoguide.com/greece/epidaurus.htm . Personally, I think that Halifax should build a stadium similar to this but more modern which will last at least 1000 years.


(source: http://badarchaeology.blogspot.com/2...1_archive.html ) - Here is another image. I wish that this could be the basis for a stadium in Halifax.

Last edited by fenwick16; Aug 30, 2010 at 10:44 PM.
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  #1077  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2010, 12:37 AM
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..............
One other point is cost...ie: Winnipeg is looking at a combo shopping/office/ stadium in the hundreds of millions.......kind of a difficult comparison.............
I still think residential could be incorporated into a stadium design.

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  #1078  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2010, 4:24 AM
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I wanted to post this for Fenwick's benefit - because I think it goes to talking about how much a stadium (regardless of size) would benefit HRM.

I was in Edmonton this passed weekend (mainly to see lady gaga); but I ended up with tickets to the Eskimo's/RR's game. Now; not being a sports fan - I wasn't sure how long of a game I could stand but I thought I'd go anyway.

I stayed at the coast hotel in dt Edmonton - which was hosting a drag queen event that some friends from back home were attending which took up about half the rooms but by mid afternoon the hotel's 299 rooms were full because the other half were Sask fans from out of town. So needless to say watching them seeing drag queens wandering around was a big laugh to me. Anyway, I'm digressing...

When I got to the game, I was amazed at how many sask fans were there. Easily 50% and I think it may have even outnumbered local fans.

So if I recall correctly the initial proposal you had fenwick was between 10 to 15000 seats? If Sask fans are as divoted as other team fans; I'd guess everytime Sask was in town - the place would sell out because I'm willing to guess at least half that number would come to see their team play.

So even if half is being generous - let's say 3,000 people come - most tourism numbers say that weekend visitors spend $1,500 per person. That one weekend game would represent 4.5 million$ in tourism dollars. That amount would grow if more people attended. It would only take 10 games at that level of tourism spending to bring in 45 million $ to the local economy (or more). They might even spend more depending on how they structure their trip and if hotel capacity is not well used too.

Just some food for thought - I checked 6 different hotels for the weekend game. The Westin (413 rooms - full), The Sutton Place (313 - they said about 95% full), Fairmont (199 rooms they said 90% full), The Coast (Plaza Hotel - where I stayed; 299 rooms (99% full)), The Coast Edmonton House (another hotel in dt - 200 rooms (full)) and the Crowne Plaza (307 rooms - full). That's just some of the hotels in Edmonton - I can imagine most were just as busy if over half the stadium's crowd (69k) were in town.
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Old Posted Aug 31, 2010, 7:49 AM
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Thanks for the info halifaxboyns. I feel that having an outdoor stadium would be just as beneficial as having a convention centre in bringing people to the city. I think it might also allow Halifax to get concerts like U2 which would draw more people to the city.

Did you enjoy the game?

For anyone who is interested, I uploaded the latest 3D stadium model to the Google 3D Warehouse. It can be found by searching for the words Halifax stadium within the Google 3D Warehouse or by searching fenwick16. Drawing 3D stadium models has become a real hobby for me.

PS: Based on what I have read and by looking at images on the internet, Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton looks as though the lower bowl of seats is sunken below ground level. Just for my interest, is this correct?
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Old Posted Aug 31, 2010, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
I wanted to post this for Fenwick's benefit - because I think it goes to talking about how much a stadium (regardless of size) would benefit HRM.

I was in Edmonton this passed weekend (mainly to see lady gaga); but I ended up with tickets to the Eskimo's/RR's game. Now; not being a sports fan - I wasn't sure how long of a game I could stand but I thought I'd go anyway.

I stayed at the coast hotel in dt Edmonton - which was hosting a drag queen event that some friends from back home were attending which took up about half the rooms but by mid afternoon the hotel's 299 rooms were full because the other half were Sask fans from out of town. So needless to say watching them seeing drag queens wandering around was a big laugh to me. Anyway, I'm digressing...

When I got to the game, I was amazed at how many sask fans were there. Easily 50% and I think it may have even outnumbered local fans.

So if I recall correctly the initial proposal you had fenwick was between 10 to 15000 seats? If Sask fans are as divoted as other team fans; I'd guess everytime Sask was in town - the place would sell out because I'm willing to guess at least half that number would come to see their team play.

So even if half is being generous - let's say 3,000 people come - most tourism numbers say that weekend visitors spend $1,500 per person. That one weekend game would represent 4.5 million$ in tourism dollars. That amount would grow if more people attended. It would only take 10 games at that level of tourism spending to bring in 45 million $ to the local economy (or more). They might even spend more depending on how they structure their trip and if hotel capacity is not well used too.

Just some food for thought - I checked 6 different hotels for the weekend game. The Westin (413 rooms - full), The Sutton Place (313 - they said about 95% full), Fairmont (199 rooms they said 90% full), The Coast (Plaza Hotel - where I stayed; 299 rooms (99% full)), The Coast Edmonton House (another hotel in dt - 200 rooms (full)) and the Crowne Plaza (307 rooms - full). That's just some of the hotels in Edmonton - I can imagine most were just as busy if over half the stadium's crowd (69k) were in town.
Not to burst your bubble...

The reason rider fans show up in large numbers across the country is so many have moved away from saskatchewan. There certainly weren't more than a couple thousand who drove in from saskatchewan and driving to Edmonton is significantly different than driving to halifax. To suggest your going to get thousands...or even hundreds of out of town rider fans at a game on the east coast is ridiculous.
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