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  #201  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 8:30 PM
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Come to think of it, I don't really use either word. I just refer to whatever the actual drink is... coke, pepsi, 7-up, etc.

But I also rarely order one of them anyway.

I think I'm going to go with the totally generic 'soft drink' from now on.
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  #202  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 8:31 PM
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"Coke" is all but gone in the Houston area; it's been overridden by foreigners and carpetbaggers from up north so it's pretty much just "soda".
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  #203  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 8:31 PM
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7-up... do they still make 7-up?

Haven't seen that around in a long time. I liked it better than Sprite. Not as sweet from what I remember.
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  #204  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
But I also rarely order one of them anyway.
true. i find soda pop to be MUCH too sweet.

i will occasionally have a diet coke, but that's about it.

even more occasionally a craft root beer if one is available.

but if i'm not drinking beer, 95% of the time i'd rather have a la croix (pamplemousse).
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  #205  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
true. i find soda pop to be MUCH too sweet.

i will occasionally have a diet coke, but that's about it.

even more occasionally a craft root beer if one is available.

but if i'm not drinking beer, 95% of the time i'd rather have a la croix (pamplemousse).
The only time I really like a Coke is with PIZZA... every so often I think I regress to childhood at the pizza shop and get a taste for a coke out of the 'fountain'. But usually, it's beer with PIZZA.

I like that la croix pamplemousse... had it for the first time last week. Now I want one.
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  #206  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 11:35 PM
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With Minneapolis there was discussion of the skyway counting against its urbanism, but I personally disagree with that general train of thought.

I think indoor urbanism should be considered similarly to outdoor urbanism.

Are Tokyo's vast underground shopping mall/train stations anti-urban? Or Kowloon Walled City? Is Hong Kong in general not urban because of the podium malls and pedestrian bridges? I would even argue that these kinds of three dimensional pedestrian systems make cities even more urban, by virtue of denser and richer pedestrian networks.


The point sometimes comes up when discussing Detroit's Renaissance Center, with people saying that it's a dead zone or that there's no pedestrian activity and things like that, but the podium of the Ren Cen is one of the most active pedestrian areas downtown.
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  #207  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Jasoncw View Post
With Minneapolis there was discussion of the skyway counting against its urbanism, but I personally disagree with that general train of thought.

I think indoor urbanism should be considered similarly to outdoor urbanism.
So the Mall of America is as urban as, say, the Champs Elysees, because they likely have similar pedestrian counts at certain hours?
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Originally Posted by Jasoncw View Post
Are Tokyo's vast underground shopping mall/train stations anti-urban? Or Kowloon Walled City? Is Hong Kong in general not urban because of the podium malls and pedestrian bridges?
Yes, generally speaking. These are privatized spaces that harm urbanity, and reduce street traffic. Not train stations, but certainly skywalks, shopping malls, etc. Of course both HK and Tokyo have tons of great urbanity too.

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Originally Posted by Jasoncw View Post
The point sometimes comes up when discussing Detroit's Renaissance Center, with people saying that it's a dead zone or that there's no pedestrian activity and things like that, but the podium of the Ren Cen is one of the most active pedestrian areas downtown.
I suspect you've never been to the RenCen, which is a fortified dead zone, inside and out.
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  #208  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 12:58 AM
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the problem in Chicago is that Midwestern is often code for white average America
This is ridiculous. What is the difference between Midwestern whites and those of the Northeast? Boston and New England are perhaps the most stereotypically white part of the country. New York and New Jersey are likewise known for their working class Italians/Irish, their Jews, and other white ethnic groups above all. Pennsylvania is no different from other Midwestern states.

The same is true for the South and most of the West. Why are their Mexicans or black people so much more interering than ours? Why is any race preferable to another? Are some white people more exciting than others?
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  #209  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 1:09 AM
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Are some white people more exciting than others?
As an Irish guy who grew up with a ton of Portuguese and Italian friends, I can absolutely say that yes, some white people are waaaay more exciting than others.
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  #210  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 1:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I hear it a little bit in Cleveland too, but it doesn't seem quite as nasally. What's strange to me is that I grew up in Erie, which is right between Buffalo and Cleveland, but that nasally 'a' thing accent doesn't exist there. I always remember when I was growing up, hearing family from Pittsburgh and family from Buffalo speaking, and wondering why they talked that way.

Maybe the NW PA accent is a combo of both, with the nasal tone drown out by the western PA/Pittsburgh accent to the point that it's just flat, with no discernible sounds. I don't know, Erie's weird.
Erie is actually renowned among linguists in that it is the only U.S. city which has shifted from having a "Northern" accent to a "Midland" one. A century ago, the speech was firmly similar to neighboring Buffalo and Cleveland, but the influence of Pittsburgh media shifted the local accent to Pittsburghese.

The same dynamic has happened elsewhere in reverse multiple times though. Lots of Downstate Illinois cities - and most notably St. Louis - have shifted over time to have more of the nasal northern accent and away from the Midlands.
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  #211  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeMusashi View Post
This is ridiculous. What is the difference between Midwestern whites and those of the Northeast? Boston and New England are perhaps the most stereotypically white part of the country. New York and New Jersey are likewise known for their working class Italians/Irish, their Jews, and other white ethnic groups above all. Pennsylvania is no different from other Midwestern states.

The same is true for the South and most of the West. Why are their Mexicans or black people so much more interering than ours? Why is any race preferable to another? Are some white people more exciting than others?
Because northeast whites are closely associated with a particular ethnic group. Not so much with Midwesterners who are seen less by their identity outside Chicago (e.g. Polish) and Minnesota (Scandinavian) and just 'white'.
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  #212  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 2:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yes, generally speaking. These are privatized spaces that harm urbanity, and reduce street traffic. Not train stations, but certainly skywalks, shopping malls, etc. Of course both HK and Tokyo have tons of great urbanity too.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they harm urbanity in the case of Toyko or Hong Kong. There is enough pedestrian traffic in these cities that those sorts of private indoor retail spaces & walkways are not detrimental to their urban vibrancy. If anything, they're needed because everything and everyone won't otherwise actually fit onto the streets.

In a city like Minneapolis though, the success of the skyway system undoubtedly comes at the expense of a diluted street level. You need a pretty high degree of density and traffic for the multi-leveled city to start making sense.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
As an Irish guy who grew up with a ton of Portuguese and Italian friends, I can absolutely say that yes, some white people are waaaay more exciting than others.

Insofar as food goes at least, absolutely.
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  #213  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 2:45 AM
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Erie is actually renowned among linguists in that it is the only U.S. city which has shifted from having a "Northern" accent to a "Midland" one. A century ago, the speech was firmly similar to neighboring Buffalo and Cleveland, but the influence of Pittsburgh media shifted the local accent to Pittsburghese.

The same dynamic has happened elsewhere in reverse multiple times though. Lots of Downstate Illinois cities - and most notably St. Louis - have shifted over time to have more of the nasal northern accent and away from the Midlands.
st. louis is a weird one since the geological ozarks with tall yellow pine trees and firetowers tumble down (up) right smack into st. louis county. i’ve never heard t.s. eliot speak with an original accent but i always thought william s. burroughs had a genteel quasi-southern inflection, while harry caray was mistaken for a chicagoan. i think the very old protestant landed class in st. louis had more connections with places like new orleans, perhaps, while the more working/middle class catholics sounded more great lakes, and still do.
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  #214  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasoncw View Post
With Minneapolis there was discussion of the skyway counting against its urbanism, but I personally disagree with that general train of thought.

I think indoor urbanism should be considered similarly to outdoor urbanism.

Are Tokyo's vast underground shopping mall/train stations anti-urban? Or Kowloon Walled City? Is Hong Kong in general not urban because of the podium malls and pedestrian bridges? I would even argue that these kinds of three dimensional pedestrian systems make cities even more urban, by virtue of denser and richer pedestrian networks.


The point sometimes comes up when discussing Detroit's Renaissance Center, with people saying that it's a dead zone or that there's no pedestrian activity and things like that, but the podium of the Ren Cen is one of the most active pedestrian areas downtown.
There's a major difference between the Skyway and the Ren Cen. The Minneapolis Skyway is a public right of way, and the Ren Cen is not. The Skyway is more analogous to the underground walkways in Asian cities. Both the Ren Cen and the Skyway do detract from the street level urban activity, BUT the Skyway does a far better job of protecting small businesses, and thus keeping the dollars spent local.

The Ren Cen is more analogous to a place like the World Financial Center in Manhattan. WFC was built in the same era as the Ren Cen, and with the similar objectives of keeping office workers in a self-contained environment for the entire work day.
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  #215  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 4:59 PM
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As someone who worked in downtown Minneapolis for 20 years, I generally had a love-hate relationship with the skyways. They definitely detract from streetlife. Nicollet Mall has decent pedestrian traffic, but other streets in the core lack activity. But in winter months, you really appreciate the skyway and the volume of usage is amazing. No matter what the weather is like outside, huge crowds of people circulate throughout the downtown core via skyway, patronizing local businesses and restaurants.
In the past ten years, substantial development has occurred around the edges of the downtown core, greatly enlarging the active areas of downtown (North Loop, Mills District, Downtown East, etc...). What had been parking lots and non-descript commercial buildings has densified and been developed with lots of housing, decent amount of office, hotels, restaurants and even retail, especially in the North Loop.
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  #216  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

this is 9 years old now, but still gives a decent indication:

major midwest cities by total # of people in census tracts >10,000 ppsm (2010):

Chicago - 2,584,931
Milwaukee - 252,711
Minneapolis -183,441
Cleveland - 98,090
Detroit - 70,371
St. Louis - 64,143
Columbus - 38,613
Cincinnati - 34,703
Kansas City -2,998
Indianapolis - 0
Interesting list. I'm curious about St. Paul's numbers and the combined Minneapolis-St. Paul total.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
The Minneapolis Skyway is a public right of way,
This is not correct. The skyway system is owned and managed by the individual property owners. The Downtown Improvement District (a nonprofit) works to coordinate hours and wayfinding, etc. but the skyways are all under direct control of the properties they run through. In St. Paul, I'm not sure exactly how they do it legally, whether its part of conditions attached to encroachment permits or easements or what, but the city retains control over hours and certain skyway rules. That's why you'll find later and more uniform hours in the St. Paul skyway.

A lot of people hate on the skyway system here pretty hard. I'm neutral to lukewarmly supportive of it. It is a tremendous boon to the city in the winter, but obviously has a negative impact on street life. It's hard to say for sure, but I would guess that the skyway has probably had a big impact on retaining downtown jobs. It's definitely a significant amenity for office workers.
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  #217  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasoncw View Post
With Minneapolis there was discussion of the skyway counting against its urbanism, but I personally disagree with that general train of thought.

I think indoor urbanism should be considered similarly to outdoor urbanism.

Is Hong Kong in general not urban because of the podium malls and pedestrian bridges?
Obviously Hong Kong is super urban, but the area closest to the harbor (especially by the convention center) is pretty hostile to pedestrians, and I do think the functionality of its urbanity in this area is harmed by the pedestrian bridges and freeways (is that the right term?).

Compare this part of Hong Kong:
https://www.google.com/maps/@22.2797...7i13312!8i6656

to this part:
https://www.google.com/maps/@22.2851...7i13312!8i6656

The pedestrian bridges, and moreso, the focus and prioritization of the car over the pedestrian, makes the first area less 'urban', even though they're both lined with skyscrapers. This isn't to say this is necessarily a bad thing. HK is a huge city, and the entire place can't be centered around pedestrians. There's a trade off involved with this type of development that removes pedestrians from the street. In this HK example, the trade off is mobility and access to the city for cars and commuters. In Minneapolis, the skywalks allow for easy and comfortable movement throughout the core in the many months out of the year when it's arctic like up there, but the trade off is less pedestrian activity on the streets.
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  #218  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:31 PM
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Interesting list. I'm curious about St. Paul's numbers and the combined Minneapolis-St. Paul total.
those numbers are by MSA, so st. paul's total was included in minneapolis' figure.

here's how it breaks down for the twin cities:

183,441 total in the MSA

141,639 in Minneapolis

37,304 in St. Paul

4,498 in Brooklyn Park
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  #219  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MPLS_Const_Watch View Post
Interesting list. I'm curious about St. Paul's numbers and the combined Minneapolis-St. Paul total.



This is not correct. The skyway system is owned and managed by the individual property owners. The Downtown Improvement District (a nonprofit) works to coordinate hours and wayfinding, etc. but the skyways are all under direct control of the properties they run through. In St. Paul, I'm not sure exactly how they do it legally, whether its part of conditions attached to encroachment permits or easements or what, but the city retains control over hours and certain skyway rules. That's why you'll find later and more uniform hours in the St. Paul skyway.

A lot of people hate on the skyway system here pretty hard. I'm neutral to lukewarmly supportive of it. It is a tremendous boon to the city in the winter, but obviously has a negative impact on street life. It's hard to say for sure, but I would guess that the skyway has probably had a big impact on retaining downtown jobs. It's definitely a significant amenity for office workers.
Yeah, I know they are owned by the private property owners, but I was of the understanding that they are legally obligated to be open to the public(?). If that is correct, then they are more analogous to New York's Privately Owned Public Spaces program (https://www1.nyc.gov/site/planning/plans/pops/pops.page) than Detroit's Ren Cen.

The point I was making is that the Ren Cen in Detroit was not meant to be a public infrastructure in any form. Skyways act as public infrastructure.
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  #220  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Erie is actually renowned among linguists in that it is the only U.S. city which has shifted from having a "Northern" accent to a "Midland" one. A century ago, the speech was firmly similar to neighboring Buffalo and Cleveland, but the influence of Pittsburgh media shifted the local accent to Pittsburghese.
How the hell do you know this stuff?

I will now relay this information to many Erie family and friends, just so they know. This is the type of information 90% of the population doesn’t think for than a second about, but it’s total gold to me. Thanks for this nugget. It’s interesting to note that the only time I hear a tinge of nasal accent/northern vowel shift in an Erieite’s speech, they are almost always old, white, usually Polish, and from the east side of Erie City/eastern Erie County (which is the half closer to NY).

I do question somewhat the influence of Pittsburgh media in shifting the accent though. I’m not sure what media influence from Pittsburgh was present in Erie over the past century. A media connection seems to be a much more recent thing. People in the Erie area don’t really have the Pittsburgh/SW PA accent. You’ll definitely hear it there because a lot of residents are from Pittsburgh area originally. But overall, you would definitely not call the regional accent Pittsburghese. But maybe Pittsburghese Lite?
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