Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Smuttynose1]

If we throw up freeways constantly -- anytime that we even anticipate increased development or traffic delays, then we doom transit because driving remains eminently faster and more efficient, and hence more attractive, for commuters. Driving I-15 through Salt Lake City at rush-hour is a cakewalk relative to other freeways through major cities. It's certainly not the only determinant or even the most important one, but in American cities where transit seems to attract the highest ridership levels, driving tends not to be an absolute cakewalk.

[Future Mayor]

I'm not a fan of sprawl either, however I try to be more realistic on the future. MPO's have to plan for the expected or anticipated demand and growth of areas within their jurisdiction. MAG (Mountainland Association of Governments) has to predict where growth will occur and how much that growth will be. Based on the trends of the past 20-30 years there is projected to be growth in South Utah Valley as well as Cedar Valley. If trends shift, due to demand, to more urban and centralized growth than the needs analysis will shift as well.

So while I would prefer a more centralized core. If trends and development patterns don't change, (gas prices, price of water, incentives to develop gray fields as opposed to green fields) then the MPO's must have the foresight to predict demand and plan the needs for that demand. Right-of-ways need to be acquired, not when the growth inevitably happens but if that growth happens. It is much more cost effective now than after the growth happens.

MAG, has already projected the growth of Cedar Valley and have estimated the need for a freeway out there. One that loops to Lehi, MVC and reconnects with I-15 just south of Santiquin. I have seen the maps at community meetings, however I can't find them on their website. There is a lot of interesting information regarding many studies on their site thought. http://www.mountainland.org/

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I'm not a fan of sprawl either, however I try to be more realistic on the future. MPO's have to plan for the expected or anticipated demand and growth of areas within their jurisdiction. MAG (Mountainland Association of Governments) has to predict where growth will occur and how much that growth will be. Based on the trends of the past 20-30 years there is projected to be growth in South Utah Valley as well as Cedar Valley. If trends shift, due to demand, to more urban and centralized growth than the needs analysis will shift as well.

So while I would prefer a more centralized core. If trends and development patterns don't change, (gas prices, price of water, incentives to develop gray fields as opposed to green fields) then the MPO's must have the foresight to predict demand and plan the needs for that demand. Right-of-ways need to be acquired, not when the growth inevitably happens but if that growth happens. It is much more cost effective now than after the growth happens.

MAG, has already projected the growth of Cedar Valley and have estimated the need for a freeway out there. One that loops to Lehi, MVC and reconnects with I-15 just south of Santiquin. I have seen the maps at community meetings, however I can't find them on their website. There is a lot of interesting information regarding many studies on their site thought. http://www.mountainland.org/

There is plenty of demand for urban development, There just aren't that many options available to the public. In the last 20-30 years, we've seen irresponsible development and "stupid growth (the antithesis of smart growth)", loss of orchards, and a housing bubble burst. Why would we want to follow these trends and project them into the future.?! Does MAG have any ulterior motives? Is this organization run by developers who hope to make a profit? I just don't know enough about this organization to trust it, or lend it credibility.

[Future Mayor]

MAG is the Metropolitan Planning Organization responsible for Utah and Wasatch Counties. Every MSA must have an MPO, they do traffic projections and analysis and growth projections. If there is no MPA there is no federal funding for transit or roads. MAG is a non profit organization that is responsible for many things; one thing is assisting smaller communities with planning, the MPO plans transit and roads on a more regional, across city boundaries, basis. Light Rail/BRT/Front Runner is not simply a UTA plan, MAG is responsible for the many of the studies and the population projections, that ultimately leads to UTA receiving state and federal funding for those projects.

If the legislature doesn't implement growth boundaries, which even in places that have them (Oregon) they continue to be moved outward as the population warrants it, then MAG must project what population and growth will occur based on the current laws and recent trends regarding property rights. Based on those trends and laws they must plan accordingly. If the laws change and growth boundaries are applied, than MAG and other MPO's would alter their studies according to those laws.

Not everyone that plans in the way MAG does is an evil money hungry organization.

Regarding the "Loss of Orchards" comment that is exactly why the South Connector on the Provo to Nebo Corridor was altered. The Allreds don't plan on selling their orchard and the next generation currently feels the same way and plan on continuing to operate the Orchard. So MAG and the consulting firm that helped with the Provo to Nebo study altered the proposed alignment of that road. And again, if property owners choose not to sell or develop their property than the road will NEVER be needed or built. Preserving corridors for future transportation isn't promoting sprawl, it is simply planning ahead IF, let me repeat IF the land does develop.

One of the rights as American is property rights and each property owner possesses a bundle of rights, some which are air, mineral, and development rights. These rights cannot be taken away without just compensation, just like eminent domain. The Allreds have been approached several times regarding TDR's and are not comfortable with it, because even he realizes that while he will continue to farm his land and the next generation plans on it, he isn't currently comfortable with the proposition of selling those development rights and requiring the land to be farming into perpetuity.

[i-215]

I may not be as crazy as I sound. Two ideas to consider:

• These are corridors for right-of-way preservation, not construction. I realize the demand may not be here for 100 years. It may never be here. But having the R.O.W. is just good planning.
• Oil, schmoil. We may just have an oil crisis coming, but if history is any idicator, we'll actually find transportation becoming cheaper. A viable electric car could appear on the market in the decades to come, dropping the price per mile even lower than it is now.
• The larger family-unit size in Utah isn't likely to change, for social and religious reasons. Mormons have no problem generating more Mormons. I can say that first-hand, being one. Compact growth is an easier sell in Oregon (which is physically green, culturally environmental) and in California (where land costs are premium). Utah has lots, lots, lots of cheap land. The pro-developer, Rocky Mountain "it's MY land" political climate isn't changing, either. Population Growth + Cheap Land = Sprawl WILL happen.

Buy the corridors. Then hope to never use them (maybe things will change, but don't bet they will).

[cololi]

Originally Posted by i-215

[*]The larger family-unit size in Utah isn't likely to change, for social and religious reasons. Mormons have no problem generating more Mormons. I can say that first-hand, being one. Compact growth is an easier sell in Oregon (which is physically green, culturally environmental) and in California (where land costs are premium). Utah has lots, lots, lots of cheap land. The pro-developer, Rocky Mountain "it's MY land" political climate isn't changing, either. Population Growth + Cheap Land = Sprawl WILL happen.[/LIST]
Buy the corridors. Then hope to never use them (maybe things will change, but don't bet they will).

Actually, the family size in many Utah counties is shrinking. We are still higher than the national average, but our trend line is following virtually the same path as the national average.

Air quality is the primary reason for compact growth in UT. Our natural features make it even more of a necessity. Unless of course the majority of people like to have long term exposure to cancer causing pollutants. This is even a bigger reason to do it than the excuses in OR or CA.

[arkhitektor]

The Viaduct is gone:

[i-215]

Now if that pesky UP/UTA rail wasn't in the way, we could just pave some asphalt and be done!

Thanks for the pics!

[TonyAnderson]

Opposition promotes reconsideration of South Davis Streetcar

By Mitch Shaw (Standard-Examiner Davis Bureau)
Last Edit: May 17 2010 - 4:52pm

BOUNTIFUL -- Public opposition on the South Davis Transit Corridor has prompted the Utah Transit Authority to take a different course on the project.

"Due to the nature and the quantity of these comments, we will do things a little differently," said UTA spokesman Gerry Carpenter. "There was a lot of opposition."

Cecilee Price-Huish, who heads the coalition, said a light rail system on Main Street in Bountiful would damage the street's character and essentially eliminate parking and create safety issues for children and the elderly.

http://www.standard.net/topics/const...ntiful-project


More Utah Transportation news

[UTPlanner]

If anybody is interested there are some pretty cool pictures on flickr updating progress on the FrontRunner South and Mid-Jordan Trax project. Here is the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/rideuta/

[rail car designer]

Originally Posted by John Martin

Okay, I'm a little disappointed they didn't paint the headlight surrounds.

they're painted... white. these two cars are missing the graphics package. the graphics are pretty similar to those on the new frontrunner cars.

[John Martin]

Oh.. how stupid of me.

[rail car designer]

Originally Posted by John Martin

Oh.. how stupid of me.

doh! sorry for that, not all the pics loaded the first time. all i saw was the bottom pic with them in white.

i think some of the later cars have decals on the headlight surrounds, i'll check next time i see one.

[arkhitektor]

New TRAX light-rail car makes inaugural trip
June 18th, 2010 @ 6:38pm
By Marc Giauque

WEST JORDAN -- Dozens of people lined up at the Park and Ride lot at 5400 West in West Jordan Friday morning to be the first to ride a brand new TRAX train.

The new light-rail train car looks sleeker, has a low-floor entryway to make it easier to board, and a number of other safety features.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11228451

[delts145]

New TRAX cars help give disabled riders greater independence

By Laura Hancock
Deseret News
Published: Friday, June 18, 2010 11:20 p.m. MDT

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...ependence.html

WEST JORDAN — The Utah Transit Authority has purchased 77 new, low-to-the-ground TRAX cars that allow people who use wheelchairs and walkers to board without a separate platform or a driver's help...


Kristin Murphy, Deseret News


UTA's new TRAX cars now have low floor entryways for disabled access. (Kristin Murphy, Deseret News)

..

[SLCdude]

Does this also mean the Mid-Jordan line is finished?

[i-215]

It's supposed to finish Summer 2011. I wouldn't be surprised if UTA pulls a "gee, we're done 6 months early." It's a P.R. tool they've used in the past.

[arkhitektor]

The final EIS for the Draper Light Rail line is available to review:

http://rideuta.com/mediaRoom/project...lications.aspx

Personally, I'd rather see UTA put their increasingly limited resources elsewhere. There have been numerous complaints from local NIMBYs and the people of Draper seem like the type that would rather drive Escalades than ride trains.

[scottharding]

i agree. Build the trolley line to Sugarhouse, and the whining soccar moms scream at each other in gridlock.

[TonyAnderson]

Not to mention the new Utah Senator (Mike Lee) will probably be trying to discontinue government support for things like the Draper extension .