Community Development - Blatchford

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by 240glt

I wouldn't even call him a developer... more like a speculator

The family has a ton of land downtown too... parking lots aplenty. Anyone who thinks that the Allards have Edmontons' best interest in mind is a fool.

Absolutely agree with that. Its all business for them.

[bulliver]

At least be honest about what is taking place here, this is an orchestrated land grab. The fact it is an airport doesn't come into it. Developers want cheap land and Mandel is going to deliver to his only constituency. Everyone else is just a useful idiot.

But you contend that the land will sit there vacant for years. You made a point of mentioning you are going to point and laugh about it. Why would developers want non-viable land? You can't have it both ways, either that land is valuable, and will be developed, or it's not valuable, and developers don't want it.

The most compelling argument you've put forward is the price of a taxi from YEG to downtown, and I am sorry to tell you, but 850,000 Edmontonians don't give a rat's ass about the weight of your wallet.

[Policy Wonk]

Naturally developers are enthusiastic, the city is assuming all the risk - they can wait and see. The city is responsible for lease liability, site decommissioning and remediation. And it will be a vacant lot for years to come - the city just renewed the Indy for a further three seasons while I doubt the airport will be operating a year from now.

The city is charging ahead with no plan, no budget, no commitments and no exit.

Air transportation is a national and international issue - you don't have to like outside opinions but they will always be there.

[Daveography]

^ Being in Calgary I can see how you might miss some of the finer details of what's happening with the ECCA. That's ok.

First, the Indy doesn't require a functioning airport to use the land for a track. The airport lands will take some time to develop. Therefore, the city is perfectly capable of honoring the Indy agreement.

Second, 33 firms, domestic and international, have submitted bids for the redevelopment design of the airport lands. Five finalists were chosen last week. I'm not sure how you can say the city has no plan. Seems to me like things are progressing just fine.

Finally, your argument that air transportation is a national and international issue is a stretch. It is also moot given that the ECCA does not serve national or international destinations or passengers or even national or international interests.

[bulliver]

Again, no one is expecting shovels in the ground the day after they finally put a bullet in the muni's head. The city just announced the shortlist for proposals a few days ago, they will be going out for public consultation soon. So that process is in motion, and with three more years of Indy it sounds like there's enough time to select one and prepare to move forward on it.

And yes, everyone has an opinion, that's become painfully clear...but the crux of this issue is how the land best serves Edmontonians, so sorry, but outsiders opinions don't really matter.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

is EE's Allard the greenfield land developer? The Allards are one of the biggest suburban developers in the city and probably one of the biggest land holders of future suburban development. It would be pretty rich to see them leading this foolish charge to keep the airport open.

Allard owns the slumlot right in front of Epcor in addition to many of the other parking lots and suburban residential on the far periphery.

[feepa]

so allards are one of biggest land developers in Edmonton, and Charles Allard leads Envision Edmonton....

am I seeing connections?

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Naturally developers are enthusiastic, the city is assuming all the risk - they can wait and see. The city is responsible for lease liability, site decommissioning and remediation. And it will be a vacant lot for years to come - the city just renewed the Indy for a further three seasons while I doubt the airport will be operating a year from now.

The city is charging ahead with no plan, no budget, no commitments and no exit.

Air transportation is a national and international issue - you don't have to like outside opinions but they will always be there.

You're really either delusional, or purposely not paying attention. Air transportation to Edmonton is not disappearing. We are only closing 1 of our 5 area airports.

[Policy Wonk]

YEG will never serve the role YXD serves, you have made it exhaustively clear you are completely indifferent to that fact.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RTA

Second, 33 firms, domestic and international, have submitted bids for the redevelopment design of the airport lands. Five finalists were chosen last week. I'm not sure how you can say the city has no plan. Seems to me like things are progressing just fine.

Proposals to submit a design study are not plans from which one can form a budget, timeline or cost-benefit analysis. The decision made a year ago was made completely blind and it continues to be completely blind. They are only today getting to the steps that should have been taken years ago.

Finally, your argument that air transportation is a national and international issue is a stretch. It is also moot given that the ECCA does not serve national or international destinations or passengers or even national or international interests.

It has in the past and served Canadian destinations more effectively than YEG ever has or will in any of our lifetimes short of a Shanghai Maglev style link between YEG and downtown, which i'm not going to hold my breath for. There has been no meaningful improvement in surface transportation from YEG in its fifty year history. I have been to cities of 50,000 people that had dedicated bus routes serving their airport with six flights a day. YEG is the 5th busiest airport in the country and can only muster a hotel shuttle bus!

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

YEG will never serve the role YXD serves, you have made it exhaustively clear you are completely indifferent to that fact.

Again ... what role was that? And why doesn't Calgary have an airport with the same role in their downtown? and without the downtown airport how does it survive according to your (flawed) logic?

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Proposals to submit a design study are not plans from which one can form a budget, timeline or cost-benefit analysis. The decision made a year ago was made completely blind and it continues to be completely blind. They are only today getting to the steps that should have been taken years ago.



It has in the past and served Canadian destinations more effectively than YEG ever has or will in any of our lifetimes short of a Shanghai Maglev style link between YEG and downtown, which i'm not going to hold my breath for. There has been no meaningful improvement in surface transportation from YEG in its fifty year history. I have been to cities of 50,000 people that had dedicated bus routes serving their airport with six flights a day. YEG is the 5th busiest airport in the country and can only muster a hotel shuttle bus!

I don't think blind is the right word here. Even if this land sits vacant for many years, it will still be better than as an industrial airport in the middle of downtown. Obviously, as your a Calgarian, you don't give two shits about what happens in this city, only your quick in/out access. Guess what - we don't care. We want this airport redeveloped for a great number of reasons, and one big growing reason for me, is so we can give selfish-Calgarians such as yourself (who have no care about what happens in this city), the big middle finger.

You should just suck it up, there is no use for a downtown airport. YEG is 25 minutes away from the core. Deal with it.

[rapid_business]

I got a better idea. Why don't Feepa and Policy Wonk both drop it. Neither of you is going to convince the other, so let's just let it be, and see how this whole convoluted process plays out.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

YEG will never serve the role YXD serves, you have made it exhaustively clear you are completely indifferent to that fact.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

It has in the past and served Canadian destinations more effectively than YEG ever has or will in any of our lifetimes short of a Shanghai Maglev style link between YEG and downtown, which i'm not going to hold my breath for. There has been no meaningful improvement in surface transportation from YEG in its fifty year history. I have been to cities of 50,000 people that had dedicated bus routes serving their airport with six flights a day. YEG is the 5th busiest airport in the country and can only muster a hotel shuttle bus!

I think you have your airports mixed up, my friend. YEG serves many more passengers than YXD ever did or could, and serves many more other aviation businesses. YXD has no room for growth, while YEG continues to grow. Any GA business at YXD that cannot move to YEG have other options, ZVL being the first that comes to mind.

Transportation to the airport is lacking, and something that is being worked on. That alone doesn't make YXD a better airport, and that fact doesn't mean YXD can suddenly handle modern aircraft that would be required to service a city of this size in this day and age. If you believe anything otherwise is possible, you are delusional.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Proposals to submit a design study are not plans from which one can form a budget, timeline or cost-benefit analysis. The decision made a year ago was made completely blind and it continues to be completely blind. They are only today getting to the steps that should have been taken years ago.

You can't expect everything to happen at once. One step at a time.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by feepa

Again ... what role was that? And why doesn't Calgary have an airport with the same role in their downtown? and without the downtown airport how does it survive according to your (flawed) logic?

The role of providing efficient regional air service to central Edmonton, the FBO's on the fringe of YYC from which Quikair and Peace Air and others operated are ten minutes from downtown Calgary. YEG isn't ten minutes from anything except Nisku.

You don't care and that is fine,

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by feepa

I don't think blind is the right word here. Even if this land sits vacant for many years, it will still be better than as an industrial airport in the middle of downtown. Obviously, as your a Calgarian, you don't give two shits about what happens in this city, only your quick in/out access. Guess what - we don't care. We want this airport redeveloped for a great number of reasons, and one big growing reason for me, is so we can give selfish-Calgarians such as yourself (who have no care about what happens in this city), the big middle finger.

You should just suck it up, there is no use for a downtown airport. YEG is 25 minutes away from the core. Deal with it.

You right, blind implies a level of innocent ignorance - this was malicious.

It is your right not to care and it is my right to work to protect all forms of transportation infrastructure from real estate schemers and nimby's who see every urban waterfront, airport and railyard as a place to be blanked with condos, suburbs and superstores.

[ZiZiPop]

^ This whole thing came about (this time , *sigh*)because of Tony Katerina. I fail to see malicious intent. Other then speculation, what else you got?

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RTA

I think you have your airports mixed up, my friend. YEG serves many more passengers than YXD ever did or could, and serves many more other aviation businesses. YXD has no room for growth, while YEG continues to grow. Any GA business at YXD that cannot move to YEG have other options, ZVL being the first that comes to mind.

Nobody is saying YEG should be closed, and yes YXD was much more effective in providing regional service than YEG is. That was true in 1963 when YXD was spared and it is still true today. GA is irrelevant and fading fast with or without YXD.

Transportation to the airport is lacking, and something that is being worked on. That alone doesn't make YXD a better airport, and that fact doesn't mean YXD can suddenly handle modern aircraft that would be required to service a city of this size in this day and age. If you believe anything otherwise is possible, you are delusional.

"Worked On" = SkyShuttle - let me know when the fifth largest airport in Canada serving six million passengers a year rises to the level of Moline Illinois - population 43,000 and transit service to the airport every half hour.

And YXD is more than capable of handling any aircraft with which regional service might be operated today. With the possible exception of some of the funky substitutions Air Canada has been known to make.

See John Wayne Airport, their only runway is ONE foot longer and operates under some of the most ridiculous airspace restrictions anywhere.

You can't expect everything to happen at once. One step at a time.

Except they started with the last step - closing the airport and are making up the rest as they go along. No plan, No Budget and no debate on what is actually to take place.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by ZiZiPop

^ This whole thing came about (this time , *sigh*)because of Tony Katerina. I fail to see malicious intent. Other then speculation, what else you got?

This has little to do with him, the current round goes back to 2005 when Edmonton Airports began a campaign of harassment against the scheduled tenants of YXD. Most notably Quikair.

Edmonton Airports began aggressively campaigning for closure at that time. Former MP Anne McLellan and Edmonton Airports board member since 2007 was the attack dog on this issue.

[bulliver]

This has little to do with him, the current round goes back to 2005 when Edmonton Airports began a campaign of harassment against the scheduled tenants of YXD. Most notably Quikair.

Edmonton Airports began aggressively campaigning for closure at that time.

That's effing hilarious. You want to see harassment and aggressive campaigning look to your friends at Envision.

"Yousa say peoples isagonna die?"