HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 10:15 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I don't know, we may not have a very deep sense of national culture or symbolism or even togetherness, but surely every country has a national narrative.

In Canada's case, it's a British and French colonial state that over time shed its reliance from the monarchy, developed a much closer relationship with the US and now enjoys a subdued, but prosperous way of life that is occasionally challenged with intra-national conflict and its over-reliance on the US.

It's boring, sure, but not every country can be about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness while fighting off government tyranny.
I do not deny it exists, but it is harder to pin down for people. Even for many Canadians - due to lack of knowledge or indifference.

Plus when it is evoked there is often no consensus on even the most basic elements, and the disagreements are often based on sheer ignorance.

"Canada has had a policy to be multicultural since day one. The country was created to be diverse with all the cultures of the world."

Really????
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:50 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
But it's not the mythological basis for our state the way it is in the US.
There's a disconnect between reality and the image of Canada people cling to. That image is colonial baggage. I suppose I never adopted any of that baggage as I was an immigrant to this country. I saw it with fresh eyes for what it was and found Canadians' identity struggles as bizarre. I still do.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:51 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
There's a disconnect between reality and the image of Canada people cling to. That image is colonial baggage. I suppose I never adopted any of that baggage as I was an immigrant to this country. I saw it with fresh eyes for what it was and found Canadians' identity struggles as bizarre. I still do.
Re: colonial baggage

My sense is that Canadians struggle greatly with finding the appropriate balance between the country's history (what you refer to as colonial baggage I guess) and being forward looking.

In the part of Canada west of the Ottawa River, not being hobbled by "colonial baggage" for lack of a better term, is a near-obsesssion with the insinuation that somehow talking about history leaves too many people "out" - and this is an evil thing. I guess.

At least in that part of the country (the majority of it, in terms of population and area), the idea that there is a crushing weight of history, traditions and colonialism sitting on people's shoulders is totally laughable.

It's probably the free-est place on earth to be what you want to be, how you want to be.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time

Last edited by Acajack; May 20, 2018 at 8:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:52 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
And let's not forget that colonial baggage played a huge role in making the country what it is today.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 4:40 PM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
There's a disconnect between reality and the image of Canada people cling to. That image is colonial baggage. I suppose I never adopted any of that baggage as I was an immigrant to this country. I saw it with fresh eyes for what it was and found Canadians' identity struggles as bizarre. I still do.
I'm not saying we're not a country rooted in free enterprise and capitalism, but it's definitely not part of our national narrative. As kool maudit said, Sweden can go hard right and still be Sweden. I likewise believe that Canada can go socialist and still be Canada. I don't think the US could and still be the US.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 5:17 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is online now
sick transit, gloria
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Roncesvalles, Toronto
Posts: 11,025
As a post-colonial state, our relative lack of national narrative may not be a bad thing. I've been to places where the spectre of the past looms very heavily in day to day interactions, which is immediately obvious if you aren't used to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
As kool maudit said, Sweden can go hard right and still be Sweden. I likewise believe that Canada can go socialist and still be Canada. I don't think the US could and still be the US.

I feel the same way.
__________________
Check out my pics of Johannesburg
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 8:54 PM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
As kool maudit said, Sweden can go hard right and still be Sweden. I likewise believe that Canada can go socialist and still be Canada. I don't think the US could and still be the US.
In broad brush strokes, Sweden is an ethno-state, while the US was founded on grandiose (wrongheaded, hypocritical) ideas. Canada, uh, is an odd melange of both ethoi, though now we're much closer to the idea end of the spectrum. Australia and New Zealand are a bit closer to the ethno-state end of the spectrum than we are, but perhaps not by much.

I wrote this post solely so that I could use the plural of ethos.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 8:59 PM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,701
When you talk about nationalism and national identity, you are talking about the nation over the individial.

You can see with Trump, he isn't talking about freer flows of goods and people. The US is moving in the opposite direction, more restrictions, with a president who was elected on the basis of national identity.

Nationalism, the national identity, the collective identity, is the opposite of individualism, the individual identity.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 1:47 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Re: colonial baggage

My sense is that Canadians struggle greatly with finding the appropriate balance between the country's history (what you refer to as colonial baggage I guess) and being forward looking.

In the part of Canada west of the Ottawa River, not being hobbled by "colonial baggage" for lack of a better term, is a near-obsesssion with the insinuation that somehow talking about history leaves too many people "out" - and this is an evil thing. I guess.

At least in that part of the country (the majority of it, in terms of population and area), the idea that there is a crushing weight of history, traditions and colonialism sitting on people's shoulders is totally laughable.

It's probably the free-est place on earth to be what you want to be, how you want to be.
You're probably correct on all counts. When I moved to Canada I noticed locals struggling with it. The Canada I saw wasn't the Canada they saw and it took me decades to figure out why.

History is history but what point is there in clinging to it when it's not how things are today? That old colonial Canada is one that's 100% foreign to me. When I meet 'old guard' Canadians I always have a hard time relating to them. I don't get them at all no matter how hard I try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I'm not saying we're not a country rooted in free enterprise and capitalism, but it's definitely not part of our national narrative. As kool maudit said, Sweden can go hard right and still be Sweden. I likewise believe that Canada can go socialist and still be Canada. I don't think the US could and still be the US.
Well what is Canada's narrative then? I have a feeling when you tell me I'll not be able to relate to it.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:25 AM
khabibulin khabibulin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I think anti-Americanism remains Canada's national pastime. A lot of the more recent growth in Canadian nationalism in English Canada is constructed or interpreted as a foil to Canadian caricatures of the US and Americans. Even when attitudes are reinterpreted as pity or indifference, those attitudes themselves appear to be steeped in or a guise for anti-Americanism.
And yet look at how Canadians were falling all over themselves to woo a (2nd) national headquarters for a behemoth of an American company to set up in Canada.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:27 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're probably correct on all counts. When I moved to Canada I noticed locals struggling with it. The Canada I saw wasn't the Canada they saw and it took me decades to figure out why.

History is history but what point is there in clinging to it when it's not how things are today? That old colonial Canada is one that's 100% foreign to me. When I meet 'old guard' Canadians I always have a hard time relating to them. I don't get them at all no matter how hard I try.

So you were born in the UK, spent part of your younger years there before coming to Canada, and you have trouble related to the kids, grandkids and great-grandkids of people who mostly came from the UK themselves in the latter part of the 1800s and in the 20th century?

That seems to be an extreme level of granularity in terms of the type of people that you can relate to.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:27 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Well what is Canada's narrative then? I have a feeling when you tell me I'll not be able to relate to it.
I wrote an example above, about former colonialism and now junior USA.

I suppose that's the kind of statement you say you wouldn't relate to, but it's the one I see. I suppose a fresher pair of eyes might see the ultimate neoliberal experiment of capitalism, free trade and multiculturalism boiled down into pragmatism, but I don't know, there are many answers to choose from.

Keep in mind that I'm a 22 year old immigrant myself, so far from an old stock Canadian.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:32 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post

I suppose that's the kind of statement you say you wouldn't relate to, but it's the one I see. I suppose a fresher pair of eyes might see the ultimate neoliberal experiment of capitalism, free trade and multiculturalism boiled down into pragmatism, but I don't know, there are many answers to choose from.
.
That may make for a tremendously successful place that's great to live in, but it doesn't sound like a country or a nation to me. Call me old-fashioned.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:36 AM
wave46 wave46 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Well what is Canada's narrative then? I have a feeling when you tell me I'll not be able to relate to it.
Caught somewhere between the American and British narratives with a Quebecois twist.

Not quite 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness', and not quite 'For King and country'.

We've definitely drifted towards the former in the past few decades. The latter seems more foreign as time drifts by. We're not wild-eyed Diefenbaker clamoring for the Red Ensign - he'd be regarded as a lunatic today.

I guess I might call it: Peace, liberty and order. Paix, liberté et ordre.

We definitely take a strong leaning towards letting people do their own thing. We're not ruckus makers or wild-eyed rebels. We're not passionate people. There's incrementalism in our ways - not revolution.

It's not a narrative to get misty-eyed about or inspire patriotism. However, it has seemed to serve us well in a pragmatic sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:43 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
That may make for a tremendously successful place that's great to live in, but it doesn't sound like a country or a nation to me. Call me old-fashioned.
You're right, but I just don't see these other countries as having much better narratives. The US is about free enterprise, but that's not much of a national foundation either. You might talk about their stronger cultural bonds of football, talk shows, general exuberance, fast food, whatever, but those aren't cultural narratives, they're elements of culture.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:48 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
You're right, but I just don't see these other countries as having much better narratives. The US is about free enterprise, but that's not much of a national foundation either. You might talk about their stronger cultural bonds of football, talk shows, general exuberance, fast food, whatever, but those aren't cultural narratives, they're elements of culture.
I am not sure we should really get hung up on the word "narrative". Even though I am the one who brought it up. It's more... "what's this country about... fundamentally?"

Anyway, in terms of narratives, this one isn't bad TBQH.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:53 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
Caught somewhere between the American and British narratives with a Quebecois twist.

Not quite 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness', and not quite 'For King and country'.

We've definitely drifted towards the former in the past few decades. The latter seems more foreign as time drifts by. We're not wild-eyed Diefenbaker clamoring for the Red Ensign - he'd be regarded as a lunatic today.

I guess I might call it: Peace, liberty and order. Paix, liberté et ordre.

We definitely take a strong leaning towards letting people do their own thing. We're not ruckus makers or wild-eyed rebels. We're not passionate people. There's incrementalism in our ways - not revolution.

It's not a narrative to get misty-eyed about or inspire patriotism. However, it has seemed to serve us well in a pragmatic sense.
I actually like that (the highlighted). Reminds me of peace, order and good government. But yours is more in line with where the country is at at the moment.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 2:54 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am not sure we should really get hung up on the word "narrative". Even though I am the one who brought it up. It's more... "what's this country about... fundamentally?"

Anyway, in terms of narratives, this one isn't bad TBQH.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Haha yeah that's a pretty good one, but as has come up a lot in these threads recently, Canada's not exactly great at imagery and self-promotion.

I guess when it really comes down to it, just like the Americans we ended up giving up the crown, but we never decided on a replacement. Just, let's keep being safe, warm and fed and that's it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 3:49 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
Haha yeah that's a pretty good one, but as has come up a lot in these threads recently, Canada's not exactly great at imagery and self-promotion.

I guess when it really comes down to it, just like the Americans we ended up giving up the crown, but we never decided on a replacement. Just, let's keep being safe, warm and fed and that's it.
I know you don't do this, and it wouldn't be your style to do it, but I find that when we have this discussion a lot of people get defensive and say things like "well, Japan France Italy Australia Brazil etc aren't any more clearly defined as nations from my vantage point, so prove it, bucko!"

That argument's a bit of cop-out to me...
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted May 21, 2018, 7:31 AM
mistercorporate's Avatar
mistercorporate mistercorporate is offline
The Fruit of Discipline
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,036
Who cares about national narratives. Narratives are a means to control a population to achieve certain objectives by those in power. We are a happy, comfortable and reliable society, which ultimately is what most countries strive to achieve.

Countries grasp for national narratives when they stumble from the path to a happy society, by trying to reestablish past habits in the vain hope it will get them back on that path and relive those past glories.

Canada until very recently was a mediocre country with a very average lifestyle, low self confidence, and below average culture when it came to fun and inspiring activities even though it was resource rich. Most immigrants and even native born people left to greener and warmer pastures given half a chance.

One day, when we lose our quality of life, people will nostalgically try to recreate the habits and outer trappings of our current civilization and create a dogmatic national narrative they will militantly try to recreate, because this right now is our golden age, it was never better than this.

People in early 20th century America were not focused on building walls near Mexico, envirionmentalism, or gun laws, or respect for the flag and the president. They were too busy enjoying the good life, they were living their very own golden age. It's is only now they're in decline that they long for their past, and strive to maintain privileges and cultural habits as unassailable eternal cultural traits. The reality is their golden age was the result not of the culture of its time, but of a host of historical factors (unrelated to culture) that allowed their majority community a temporary bubble of extreme prosperity and dynamism. Trump, as the outer embodiment of those supposed cultural traits, exploited this delusion to gain personal power, masterfully.
__________________
MLS: Toronto FC
Canadian Premier League: York 9 FC
NBA: Raptors
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:31 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.