Economy Thread

[mjpaul]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Some people around these parts have likened Woodstock to a "hole". I haven't much direct experience...it is a wide spot in the road on the way to the centre of the universe (not the one in exeter). DT St. Thomas has some nice buildings, but is obviously struggling.

ouch thats crude, Some people call Moose Jaw a hole too. I think the source of these opinions usually come from unimpressive people.

St Thomas is interesting, I feel a sick pit in my stomach when i read the following..(almost 2 year old article)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...7766/?page=all


Maybe this the reason why manufacturing is leaving? along with a strong CDN dollar.
Production workers at Ford earn $33.90 an hour and have benefit packages that are among the best for workers in the manufacturing sector in Canada. When Sterling closed, assembly line workers were paid $29.16 an hour.

those are BIG wages imo

comment from "journey man"
I've worked at both unionized and non-union manufacturing plants around SW Ontario for over 30yrs. I know for a fact that when applications are received at the non-union plants (e.g., Magna, Toyota, etc.) from laid off former CAW plant workers that their applications go straight into the shredder.

It's not always fair, but is the reality.

Big union plants with big union wages unfortunately produced lots of people with a "big union attitude' that most managers avoid like the plague.


yep!

I realize CAW is trying to push their way into Woodstock, I see this a direct threat against the city...people in woodstock need to chase them out of there!

[ssiguy]

I think the Games will greatly help London over the long term. London is the kind of city that doesn't get a lot of attention and when it does it needs to make the best of it.

For mid-size cities, getting attention is half the problem and when they do it is very important to make a good first impression because there won't be a second. This is good news for London because despite all the bitching we do about the economy, city government, concrete towers, horrible roads etc etc.......London makes a VERY good first impression.

It is a very civil, refined, attractive, leafy, vibrant, and likeable city. Even out here people who have never been {and most have never been east of Calgary} all say that "they hear it's a nice city". I remember my from from Quebec City who visited and loved the place and was surprised as it was surrounded by many other major cities that were a bit on the dumpy side and he found London a real oasis.

When you have your moment in the sun, you need to capatilize on it and London is fortunate in that it doesn't have to rely on the obligatory smaller events surrounding the big one to leave visitors and businesses with a damn good impression.

[ssiguy]

On a side note..............any pics of the revamped Market Lane?

[go_leafs_go02]

I'll echo that comment. Anyone out here in BC, when I mention I'm from London, say, oh that's a great City from what I've heard.

It has a good rep to be honest.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I'll echo that comment. Anyone out here in BC, when I mention I'm from London, say, oh that's a great City from what I've heard.

It has a good rep to be honest.

I guess when you're not in another city with an OHL team and a university with a heavy rivalry with Western, you don't hear as much negative.

At least people you've met in BC have heard of London, I remember visiting the East Coast and explaining to some people from Halifax that I was not from England. These people had no idea there was a London in Canada.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I guess when you're not in another city with an OHL team and a university with a heavy rivalry with Western, you don't hear as much negative.

At least people you've met in BC have heard of London, I remember visiting the East Coast and explaining to some people from Halifax that I was not from England. These people had no idea there was a London in Canada.

Yeah OHL aside, and it's pure jealousy of the Knights, the rink, the 9000 fans for the last 10 years, that's all.

I don't know many people who aren't familiar with the major cities in Ontario out here. Of course, media coverage here definitely covers the news and events in Ontario.

[ssiguy]

Well trained human capitol can go anywhere it likes to get a job as can businesses.

Businesses know that in order to lure talent and expand they have to not only offer good wages but also offer a high quality of life. This is why there is often a very acute shortage of labour in less desireable areas of the country whether that be due to the weather, crime, unattractiveness, mill/pulp towns etc.

Doctors, nurses, teachers, profs, scientists etc ussually make the same wage no matter which part of the province {or country if they are on the federal payroll} they live in. Of course their income would go far,far further in rural/remote areas but that doesn't really matter. They want, and can demand, to work in a local that offers a top notch quality of life.

This is where London's well deserved reputation of being a very liveable and pleasant city results in real economic benefits. Businesses new or established want to make sure that they are going to be able to get the professionals they need to prosper. All the low taxes and relocation funds don't do a damn thing if they can't get the employees they need and to get anyone to move to London doesn't take much effort.

Few cities offer the kind of standard of living and quality of life that London does and it is amongst it's best economic strengths.

[mjpaul]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I'll echo that comment. Anyone out here in BC, when I mention I'm from London, say, oh that's a great City from what I've heard.

It has a good rep to be honest.

another thing that intrigued me about London is I have heard it being referred to as "recession proof". A businessman in Windsor recommended London as a good place to start up a business, so there is positive perceptions out there. Another thing I heard from my daughter (in Toronto) and her friends that..."London is a great place to shop" ...I cant comment on that, but I like the positive comments about London. London has a direct flight to Calgary and I imagine that would be a popular route.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by mjpaul

I've worked at both unionized and non-union manufacturing plants around SW Ontario for over 30yrs. I know for a fact that when applications are received at the non-union plants (e.g., Magna, Toyota, etc.) from laid off former CAW plant workers that their applications go straight into the shredder.

It's not always fair, but is the reality.

Big union plants with big union wages unfortunately produced lots of people with a "big union attitude' that most managers avoid like the plague.


yep!

I realize CAW is trying to push their way into Woodstock, I see this a direct threat against the city...people in woodstock need to chase them out of there!

I wonder if I know Journey Man in real life... I met someone who worked at Magna and told me the exact same thing.

As for Woodstock, don't worry about them. Toyota is a company that treats its employees well to begin with (all part of the Japanese obsession with quality), and I'm sure they recognize that having a stable job that pays slightly less is better than having no job at all and being trapped in St. Thomas 2.0. The CAW has tried to muscle their way into Alliston, Woodstock and Cambridge before, and each time the employees knew what was going on and told them to sod off.

[ssiguy]

yes, London is a good shopping city for it's size as it is a fairly affluent city and is a major regional centre. Yes it has malls but London also has a lot of boutique high end shops and a decidely high end shopping district ....Richmond Row.

Londoners have a very high disposable income due to being a middle income city but a below average cost of living. This is particularily true of housing which is very affordable.
This not only leaves a lot of disposable income for high end shopping but also a lot of very good restaurants and cafes along Richmond Row, downtown, Wortley Village, and increasingly SOHO.

PS.....In London SOHO actually means something and isn't just brand copying. It entails a large developing areas "south of Horton".

[manny_santos]

Peterborough - 11.7%
London - 9.9%
Windsor - 9.2%
St. Catharines-Niagara - 8.6%
Toronto - 8.4%
Oshawa - 8.3%
Barrie - 8.1%
Greater Sudbury - 7.9%
Brantford - 7.6%
Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge - 7.1%
Guelph - 6.9%
Hamilton - 6.8%
Thunder Bay - 6.4%
Ottawa - 6.1%
Kingston - 5.9%

On behalf of the city with the lowest unemployment in Ontario, I'm really sorry London.

I also don't blame Fontana one bit. What is happening to the London CMA is a combination of St. Thomas's situation and the Ontario economy, which I don't doubt has been severely damaged by Dalton McGuinty's electricity and spending programs. I think Kingston and Ottawa are only doing so well because of the number of federal government employees in both cities. As long as Ottawa is the national capital, and as long as Kingston has prisons, two universities and the military base, they're going to do well.

I'd like to know what the unemployment rate is in London for the 18-24 age group. I wouldn't be surprised if it's near 20%.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

On behalf of the city with the lowest unemployment in Ontario, I'm really sorry London.

I also don't blame Fontana one bit. What is happening to the London CMA is a combination of St. Thomas's situation and the Ontario economy, which I don't doubt has been severely damaged by Dalton McGuinty's electricity and spending programs. I think Kingston and Ottawa are only doing so well because of the number of federal government employees in both cities. As long as Ottawa is the national capital, and as long as Kingston has prisons, two universities and the military base, they're going to do well.

I'd like to know what the unemployment rate is in London for the 18-24 age group. I wouldn't be surprised if it's near 20%.

What the hell's going on in Peterborough?

Despite the white-collar reputation, London is also a fundamentally industrial city and it's deindustrializing. I think this is a combination of electricity prices, strong unions inflating wages (both of which are HUGE inputs in a manufacturing process) and infrastructure poorly suited to JIT manufacturing systems, which are all combining to create a perfect storm. I wonder what the rates for Woodstock are, or if it's even big enough to get its own set of statistics. There's a LOT of manufacturing jobs here, and the Toyota plant seems to be creating some positive externalities that other businesses benefit from. Mind you, there's also a proportionally large class of degenerates who have nothing better to do than screw up the downtown and smash car windows for pocket change, so that will affect the unemployment numbers.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I think this is a combination of electricity prices, strong unions inflating wages (both of which are HUGE inputs in a manufacturing process) and infrastructure poorly suited to JIT manufacturing systems, which are all combining to create a perfect storm.

So are you saying unions and electricity prices are different in London than other Ontario cities?

It's high time that London reinvents itself. Forget about the focus on manufacturing. We subsidise so much of that, from land to building roads for trucks, to other services. It's amazing that after all this time, London still doesn't have a clue. London will continue it's free fall. Maybe 10% unemployment is just the start.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

So are you saying unions and electricity prices are different in London than other Ontario cities?

It's high time that London reinvents itself. Forget about the focus on manufacturing. We subsidise so much of that, from land to building roads for trucks, to other services. It's amazing that after all this time, London still doesn't have a clue. London will continue it's free fall. Maybe 10% unemployment is just the start.

No, strong unions are an issue throughout all of Southwestern Ontario (and Niagara), and electricity prices are a problem everywhere in this province. That was just part of my post. Now, you say that we should stop subsidizing roads for trucks and abandon manufacturing, but that is exactly what we have done and that is partially why the unemployment rate is so high. As I said in my post, another big issue is pretty much every single road in London with the exception of Exeter, Bradley and the VMP is unsuited to modern manufacturing processes.

Ontario can be a competitive manufacturing sector because we have a skilled and productive workforce that has proven itself capable of building high-quality goods. Other towns and cities with the transportation infrastructure to support operations have proven that; I think writing it off completely is unwise. Furthermore, while the city government can guide development, it is impossible to centrally plan what sorts of companies set up shop here. That is guided by market forces and unfortunately Toronto's agglomeration economies are proving to be a little bit too strong for small and mid-sized cities to overcome (some may argue that the city is kept artificially large, though). What exactly can we do about that?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Wharn

What the hell's going on in Peterborough?

I would assume a larger number of the unemployed in Peterborough are seasonal workers. That figure should decrease dramatically in the coming month or two as contracts start again.

As for London, we've got problems on all fronts, not just manufacturing. Unions are becoming an issue for white collar and service jobs now as well. People in unions feel entitled to pay increases and benefits since they pay union dues, and thus they won't accept pay freezes or some cutbacks despite the economic environment surrounding them. The unions seem to oblivious to this fact for the most part and make demands that might have been negotiable 5 years ago not no longer. When they don't a good compromise, strikes/layoffs happen... Just look at what happened to Electro Motive.

For now we need to take what we can get. London is also missing out on some major capital works projects taking place in other cities (like the 401 extension in Windsor) which helps keep unemployment rates down. With London not wanting to raise taxes or go into debt, the province in debt, and the federal government not wanting to spend much on stimulus anymore, I doubt any major works projects will come to London any time soon.

London really needs to market itself to make it attractive to residents and businesses in the Toronto area. If some of them move here, growth could climb beyond 1% and the economy could start to recover.
-St Thomas needs to market itself as a bedroom community for London or anything other than manufacturing.