Should there be a High Speed Rail link from Calgary to Edmonton?

[chenmau]

Thanks for resurrecting this, Boris.

[EdmTrekker]

User Pay, not with my tax dollars.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

QE-2... does this annoy anyone else but me???

Little bit off topic, but when your in Edmonton, and you head down to Calgary, you can say 'you are going down on the queen'....

anyways... its stupid. Hwy 2 for life!

[e909]

It might not be such a bad idea actually. If you have a bullet train with stops in communities along QE2, you're able to have more population that can live in these smaller areas, allowing the surge on Edmonton and Calgary to be balanced out a little.

[walli]

I voted no for several reasons ...

The biggest reason was the people served to cost ratio, comparing fully expanding out both Edmonton and Calgary's LRT networks with adding this high-speed link. The high speed link should only be thought about after that.

I don't think the link should be city centre to city centre ... rather, it should be from (approximately) airport to airport. The local train networks should take over from there. Navigating within the city would completely erode the value of a high speed train. For Calgary, the station should be in the Deerfoot valley close to Airport trail (one LRT stop from the airport).

Here is a radical idea ... don't serve the Leduc International Airport at all, and use Calgary's airport for the entire province. In that case, the Edmonton station could be into the city limits.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by walli

I voted no for several reasons ...

Here is a radical idea ... don't serve the Leduc International Airport at all, and use Calgary's airport for the entire province. In that case, the Edmonton station could be into the city limits.

Genius!

[Riise]

Originally Posted by walli

Here is a radical idea ... don't serve the Leduc International Airport at all, and use Calgary's airport for the entire province. In that case, the Edmonton station could be into the city limits.

Much to the dismay of YEG supporters, that is quite the interesting idea... As long as the journey by HSR is cheap as well as fast it might be an alternative for U.S. and International bound travellers from Edmonton. If you were to make one of the High-Speed train carriages a baggage one and placed a baggage check at the train station in Edmonton, it could make for a hassle free trip to YYC and beyond. I wonder how the Air Carriers would feel about this? If they got in on the action they might not care so much, isn't this what is done in Amsterdam Schiphol and other parts of Europe?

[S_B_Russell]

^ Here's an idea, let's shut down YYC and YEG and share an airport located in Red Deer.

Comparing Alberta and the Netherlands doesn't make any sense, but nice try. ie Netherlands - 41,526 km² vs Alberta - 661,848 km² and population Netherlands - 16,491,461 vs Alberta - 3,290,350

[Riise]

Originally Posted by S_B_Russell

Comparing Alberta and the Netherlands doesn't make any sense, but nice try. ie Netherlands - 41,526 km² vs Alberta - 661,848 km² and population Netherlands - 16,491,461 vs Alberta - 3,290,350

It's actually a much larger regional concept, I'm sorry for not explaining myself properly. The concept I'm talking about is how instead of flying between CDG and AMS to catch connecting flights some people are simply taking the train. I did this myself last summer.

[walli]

Originally Posted by Riise

Much to the dismay of YEG supporters, that is quite the interesting idea... As long as the journey by HSR is cheap as well as fast it might be an alternative for U.S. and International bound travellers from Edmonton. If you were to make one of the High-Speed train carriages a baggage one and placed a baggage check at the train station in Edmonton, it could make for a hassle free trip to YYC and beyond. I wonder how the Air Carriers would feel about this? If they got in on the action they might not care so much, isn't this what is done in Amsterdam Schiphol and other parts of Europe?

This also responds to the issue of high airport costs. There would be increased efficiencies of scale.

The other thing is, it takes 40 minutes from Edmonton airport to Edmonton downtown now ... so the high speed train would likely be much faster (not to mention cheaper) than flying to Edmonton and then transferring to a cab.

[KrisYYC]

Passengers in Edmonton connecting to a flight from YYC would benefit big time. Take into account the time to get from Edmonton to Leduc International (YEG). Plus the fact you have to be there at least one hour before your flight etc. etc.
Systems that allow passengers to check in for their flights at train stations are common throughout Europe and Asia. I've used them several times and they are enormously convienient.

Kris

[Beltliner]

I would support a Calgary-Edmonton TGV under the following circumstances:

• Privately funded. There are enough outstanding needs for municipal public transport infrastructure, not the least of which is building out the LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton, that to my mind would be of a much higher priority for public financing.
• Downtown to downtown, with no stops in between. There are too many issues related to engineering, maintenance, passenger convenience, and public safety to warrant multiple stops on a 300-kilometre TGV line. Can't say it would do much good either for Todd Babiak's glass of wine or for Sir Isaac Newton's dish of applesauce if the train were to lurch from zero to Warp 200 and back to zero again for every town on the QE2.
• Strategic scalability. Why stop at Edmonton and Calgary if the line operates at a profit and expanding the system can reasonably be justified over the long term? Conversely, why go to the trouble and expense of building a TGV line if Calgary and Edmonton are intended to be the alpha and omega of the system?

[walli]

Originally Posted by Beltliner

I would support a Calgary-Edmonton TGV under the following circumstances:

• Privately funded. There are enough outstanding needs for municipal public transport infrastructure, not the least of which is building out the LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton, that to my mind would be of a much higher priority for public financing.
• Downtown to downtown, with no stops in between. There are too many issues related to engineering, maintenance, passenger convenience, and public safety to warrant multiple stops on a 300-kilometre TGV line. Can't say it would do much good either for Todd Babiak's glass of wine or for Sir Isaac Newton's dish of applesauce if the train were to lurch from zero to Warp 200 and back to zero again for every town on the QE2.
• Strategic scalability. Why stop at Edmonton and Calgary if the line operates at a profit and expanding the system can reasonably be justified over the long term? Conversely, why go to the trouble and expense of building a TGV line if Calgary and Edmonton are intended to be the alpha and omega of the system?

I agree that we should not allow stops in the middle, however, I disagree with going to Calgary downtown instead of Calgary airport. Firstly, it would have to make a very sharp turn by TGV standards, and as such would need to slow down in a major way. Second, it would increase the cost significantly, as you'd need new bridges / overpasses. Third, instead of building on and supporting Alberta's busiest and most important travel hub, you'd be bypassing the airport.

[Beltliner]

Originally Posted by walli

...instead of building on and supporting Alberta's busiest and most important travel hub, you'd be bypassing the airport.

It strikes me that this TGV corridor is going to be asked to serve three wildly incompatible constituencies:

• Commercial inter-city travellers, who would want to travel from downtown to downtown quickly, efficiently, and conveniently on business;
• Airport transfer passengers, who would want to connect themselves and their baggage to flights out of YYC and YEG; and
• Commuter and regional rail passengers, who would want to travel from a variety of exurban communities either to Calgary or to Edmonton for their employment.

To ask one TGV to handle all three of these transportation functions is to condemn the whole system to inefficiency and to failure. One right of way could conceivably support all three modes separately, but the TGV, as a case in point, has no business trying to be Dayliner 2.0. As a thought experiment, how about setting up a trusteeship or a Crown corporation to administer the right of way and lease it out respectively to the TGV consortium for inter-city travel, to YYC and YEG for terminal transfers, and to some other going concern for commuter and regional services? Let the respective note-holders sort out if, when, and how they want to proceed.

[ibz]

I agree with Beltliner..unless this project is 100% privately funded, and goes from DT to DT with no or very minimal stops, I would in no way want to see this happening or think that it could be feasible.

BTW...While I am well aware that YEG is located near the city of Leduc, its actually called the Edmonton International Airport...seems some of you Calgary folk have trouble getting that right.

[You Need A Thneed]

Perhaps a good solution would be to have some downtown to downtown express trains, and some that have a few stops, but downtown to downtown would be a bit slower.

[walli]

Originally Posted by Beltliner

It strikes me that this TGV corridor is going to be asked to serve three wildly incompatible constituencies:

• Commercial inter-city travellers, who would want to travel from downtown to downtown quickly, efficiently, and conveniently on business;
• Airport transfer passengers, who would want to connect themselves and their baggage to flights out of YYC and YEG; and
• Commuter and regional rail passengers, who would want to travel from a variety of exurban communities either to Calgary or to Edmonton for their employment.

To ask one TGV to handle all three of these transportation functions is to condemn the whole system to inefficiency and to failure.

I agree - that is why I would suggest it only go from close to the Calgary Airport to a stop close to Edmonton downtown (or perhaps the LRT serviced TOD the are planning where that old mall was in South Edmonton), bypassing Leduc International. The Calgary station would be a transfer hub handling the LRT (via North-Central line). The highspeed train would NOT continue to downtown. This is not a new idea, as it already part of the "North Central Transit Corridor Review":

http://www.calgarytransit.com/north_...dor_review.pdf

"Stations within the Aurora Business Park near 96 Ave including a potential
multimodal interchange terminal that would offer connections with a possible high speed rail station and a transit connection to the Calgary International Airport." - page 26 or 28, depending how you count em'

There is also a map identifying this on page 27 or 29, again, depending how you count em'.

By forcing it downtown to downtown, not leveraging the existing and/or expected LRT systems, the proposal would not be feasible. You undercut the possibility while short-changing both the Calgary International and the LRT.

[Beltliner]

Originally Posted by walli

The Calgary station would be a transfer hub handling the LRT (via North-Central line). The highspeed train would NOT continue to downtown. This is not a new idea, as it already part of the "North Central Transit Corridor Review"....

Had a look at the North Central Transit Corridor Review last year when I was looking into the north leg of the LRT, and the last I'll say of it is that it is not a load of non-penny-wise-pound-foolish non-codswallop that didn't make me want not to drop-kick my alderthingy.

As fate would have it, the Centre City Plan (2007) refers to a downtown terminus for the TGV as part of its Grand Central Station running down 2 Street SW. Page 94 of the Centre City Plan (the tenth page of the PDF) refers to "the establishment of a Centre City multi-modal 'station' [as] a key piece" of the transit integration puzzle in Calgary, and the importance of a downtown TGV connection is made clear in the plan's policy direction:

Plan for a multi-modal transit “station” at 2 Street SW between 5 and 10 Avenue SW that integrates underground and at-grade LRT lines, the BRT routes, high speed rail to Edmonton [emphasis added], regional commuter rail/bus lines, parking facilities for automobile and bicycle and the appropriate supportive land uses. A “station” may include purpose-built structures and connections (above, below or at street level) through other private and public facilities and structures. Taken together, these structures and connections will form an integrated “station” complex. (City of Calgary, 2007:94)

So in the end, the evidence from the city is something of a wash, eh what?

[Kevin_foster]

Originally Posted by ctown.myth

SimCity is not that accurate of a sim, the money and dedication doesn't only come from the government, the private and corporate world must also think that suck a connection will be better for their business. Also, the everyday Calgarian isn't going to go to Edmonton on a train which will be more expensive that taking a normal gasoline car.

That being said I think that the rail could be built, but not as a high-speed rail connection, a normal rail going a bit faster than the normal car on QEII would be feasible, but only if it doesn't hinder the progress on the LRT connections being built in the cities.

You should realize I was being sarcastic

[Boris2k7]

I think that downtown to downtown service is absolutely essential. If you have to get off near the airport, then people who live in the other three corners of the city are less likely to use the service (because you have to get off the HSR train, get to downtown by CTrain, make a transfer to another Ctrain, and then get to your place from there) as well as business travellers.

I don't have too many opinions about the stops. I assume that the trains would only hit their full speeds at certain sections, and wouldn't run too fast while in the cities. You can slow down a train rather than it "lurching" to a stop. Go ask the engineers I guess. But if you can still have 5 stops and make it faster than driving and flying, then I say do it.

Why should we be worrying so much about the Airports again? They seem to be doing just fine, with or without the Edmonton-Calgary traffic.

And related to that, why are we worried about the LRT? In any case it would still be well utilized, and the frequencies just wouldn't be high enough for the HSR to replace the LRT as a form of suburb-downtown commuting.

The VHI report mentions several environmental, economic and social benefits as well. I am quite interested in these. The social benefits in particular. And hell, Red Deer could really explode in population if it had a stop. Imagine being in the centre of both Edmonton and Calgary and being able to commute to either in about half an hour.