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  #9541  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 7:56 PM
montydawg montydawg is offline
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Originally Posted by bigstick View Post
I am just not impressed, no height, like 3k said maybe this is not the final, but hell I am going to be six feet under before any of the proposals come to fruition. What, is this going to take ten years to build out???
This the same SimCity rendering we got with Summerville, which will turn out completely different. This is just giving the stakeholders a look at what is possible and I really think the end result will look far from this rendering. We need to wait for more detailed renderings, which will show a more realistic vision for the property.
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  #9542  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 7:58 PM
jsvh jsvh is offline
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Originally Posted by bigstick View Post
I am just not impressed, no height, like 3k said maybe this is not the final, but hell I am going to be six feet under before any of the proposals come to fruition. What, is this going to take ten years to build out???
That is my point. There is basically no correlation with height and good urban design. Besides MMPT, I see nothing more I could ask for from this project.
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  #9543  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
That is my point. There is basically no correlation with height and good urban design. Besides MMPT, I see nothing more I could ask for from this project.
OK, hey, your opinion and that is fine, we still at least have that right, sort of, in this Country.
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  #9544  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 8:17 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
That is my point. There is basically no correlation with height and good urban design. Besides MMPT, I see nothing more I could ask for from this project.
There is a significant correlation with building height(s), population density and retail viability.

Also, every significant city deserves an entertainment district in their Downtown and near their sports venues. If I want Mayberry, I will can go to VA Highlands.

I need a place to get my party on!.....besides the future Margaritaville hotel.
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  #9545  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 8:50 PM
Jacobguy Jacobguy is offline
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CIM is also currently developing this http://miamiworldcenter.com/ (Curbed pointed this out.) I wonder if that's what the design will shift more too (since this one may be a temp rendering.) Or at least I'm hoping because this looks really cool.
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  #9546  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
There is a significant correlation with building height(s), population density and retail viability.
Do you have a citation for this? Low-rise cities like DC and Paris are magnitudes more dense than skyscraper focused cities like Houston or Atlanta. Then you have a place like New York City (or just about any city in China) where density and height do go hand-in-hand. I don't think it's a clear correlation. A few articles discussing this:
http://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2011...d-density.html
https://www.bdcnetwork.com/blog/dens...tall-buildings
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  #9547  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 9:04 PM
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GSU/Carter appear to be readying phase 2 of GA Ave. They were tearing up sections of the old Lexus lot today and doing soil samples it appeared. Phase 1 looks about ready to hand to the tenants in a couple more weeks with paving and exterior painting occurring. I suspect a crane will rise in the next week or so for the student apts as well. It’s actually a small lot where the 6 story building is being built.
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  #9548  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 9:14 PM
thepope117 thepope117 is offline
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This appears to be the minimal level of development they proposed. The finished product if HQ2 comes through will be much bigger even if this is all that gets built it is still a very good addition.
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  #9549  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 9:15 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
Do you have a citation for this? Low-rise cities like DC and Paris are magnitudes more dense than skyscraper focused cities like Houston or Atlanta. Then you have a place like New York City (or just about any city in China) where density and height do go hand-in-hand. I don't think it's a clear correlation. A few articles discussing this:
http://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2011...d-density.html
https://www.bdcnetwork.com/blog/dens...tall-buildings
Just so I am clear, are you saying there is not a significant correlation between building height, population density and retail viability?
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  #9550  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 9:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Looks like the residential and retail numbers will be flat regardless of the amount of office SF.

Given this is a "SkyScraper Forum" I am sure I am in the minority, but I kind of prefer this scale of development. No need for a super-tall office tower-in-a-park(ing lot) or flashing neon-filled entertainment district that is dead during the day / week. Just give me a community with a good mix of people walking around between home, work, and some bars / restaurants all times of the days / week.
Agreed-- its a surprisingly fine grained plan-- that seems to emphasize urban street qualities. Having said that its really just a master plan at this point and will take 12 years or so to actually develop. Sooner on the slim chance that it's Amazon HQ2--
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  #9551  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 10:16 PM
GTAlum GTAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Jacobguy View Post
CIM is also currently developing this http://miamiworldcenter.com/ (Curbed pointed this out.) I wonder if that's what the design will shift more too (since this one may be a temp rendering.) Or at least I'm hoping because this looks really cool.
That is definitely more of what I was expecting... The rendering that was released today is by no means worth the incentive deal that CIM is asking for.
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  #9552  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
Just so I am clear, are you saying there is not a significant correlation between building height, population density and retail viability?
I'm saying I've never seen a study showing a significant correlation, and my anecdotal experience suggests that in developed nations the most densely populated areas are full of mid-rise buildings, not skyscrapers. In Atlanta, only two of the most dense census tracts have a lot of highrises (both in Midtown) while all of the rest (along Buford Highway, Techwood, Renaissance park, Home park, Lenox at Sidney Marcus, and Fulton county jail) are all low/mid-rise:
https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.htm...1de90ec755791c

Even for Manhattan, population density actually is correlated with lower building height.

Retail viability is a completely separate question that depends on complex factors like tourism. I have no idea how that relates to building height. But in Atlanta, Lenox Square probably has the highest retail viability, and it's two stories.

If the gulch is a mid-rise district as shown in those renderings, it could very well be one of the most dense neighborhoods in Atlanta.
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  #9553  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 10:37 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post

If the gulch is a mid-rise district as shown in those renderings, it could very well be one of the most dense neighborhoods in Atlanta.
What you are forgetting is CIM Group is only promising 1000 residential units in the Gulch. So it will be far from the densest in Atlanta even at full build out. Therefore, they will need significant highrise office and hotels if retail could ever be viable.
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  #9554  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 11:02 PM
arctk2014 arctk2014 is offline
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Originally Posted by montydawg View Post
This the same SimCity rendering we got with Summerville, which will turn out completely different. This is just giving the stakeholders a look at what is possible and I really think the end result will look far from this rendering. We need to wait for more detailed renderings, which will show a more realistic vision for the property.
FWIW - Perkins + Will did both studies/plans and commissioned the renderings hence the similarities in the concept renderings.
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  #9555  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2018, 11:22 PM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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This doesn't surprise me. I expect the development to be far less impressive if HQ2 doesn't happen.
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  #9556  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2018, 12:06 AM
jsvh jsvh is offline
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Originally Posted by Atlriser View Post
GSU/Carter appear to be readying phase 2 of GA Ave. They were tearing up sections of the old Lexus lot today and doing soil samples it appeared. Phase 1 looks about ready to hand to the tenants in a couple more weeks with paving and exterior painting occurring. I suspect a crane will rise in the next week or so for the student apts as well. It’s actually a small lot where the 6 story building is being built.
Yep: https://www.bisnow.com/atlanta/news/...ixed-use-92015
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  #9557  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2018, 12:17 AM
jsvh jsvh is offline
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
What you are forgetting is CIM Group is only promising 1000 residential units in the Gulch. So it will be far from the densest in Atlanta even at full build out. Therefore, they will need significant highrise office and hotels if retail could ever be viable.
Not that density it the main thing that makes a good development, but what other neighborhoods would be denser? At 27 acres and 1.5 people per unit that is 36K people per square mile. According to this, the densest neighborhoods in Atlanta are all ~10K PPSM.

Also, the number of residential space stays the same irregardless of how much office space is built:



So if we get HQ2 and some taller office buildings, great. If not, it still looks great.

Last edited by jsvh; Aug 22, 2018 at 12:29 AM.
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  #9558  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2018, 4:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
Quick Observation

This is not 8 Million sqft of office, 1,500 hotel rooms, 1,000 residences and 1 Million sqft of commercial/retail development. This is a rendering prepared solely for the public CoA City Council meeting today. Expect the next rendering after the HQ2 announcement to be magnitudes more impressive.

i wish you the best with this prediction.
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  #9559  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2018, 5:56 AM
GlobalResNativAtlant GlobalResNativAtlant is offline
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CIM Group Gulch Plans

It only takes a short perusal of CIM Groups projects in LA, Miami and Brooklyn to see that they way underestimate Atlanta.

This could be an important entertainment business and residential center of an 8 million person metropolis-- especially as Miamians flee sea level rise-- and they will as real estate goes underwater literally.

The City of Atlanta and CIM are being very short-sighted not to build this development around a multi-modal commuter train station.

I think the developer does not understand Atlanta's progressive spirit...

This is a boring and unimaginative plan, which threatens it's viabilty... way worse than Atlantic Station.

Also, compare this rendering to any of the competitors' plans for HQ2...

Make grand plans to stir men's soul...

Last edited by GlobalResNativAtlant; Aug 23, 2018 at 6:56 PM.
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  #9560  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2018, 9:04 AM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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This "LA developer" is the brother of someone who owns the Atlanta Hawks and will be collaborating with the owner of the Atlanta Falcons who's been intimately involved in Atlanta's business community since the 1970s. So I'm pretty sure they know enough about the city to make informed investment decisions.

People seem to forget, a typical developer only pursues projects they know for sure willl maximize their profit, not projects to appease others.

The problem is, and I see it starting to reveal itself, is that people have their expectations set so high for Amazon HQ2 selecting this site that they're going to be sorely disappointed when, if Amazon selects other city, the project is inevitably scaled back significantly (after all, it's crazy to think the developer would build so much commercial space based purely on speculation)

Last edited by skyscraperpage17; Aug 22, 2018 at 1:46 PM.
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