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  #4941  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by q12 View Post
What if you were hiding when the maniac showed up and your phone started screeching?
I highly doubt this was the reason the Amber Alert system was not used yesterday.

The chances of that occurring were miniscule. And in any event, someone's phone can ring or ping for some other reason at any time.
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  #4942  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I highly doubt this was the reason the Amber Alert system was not used yesterday.

The chances of that occurring were miniscule. And in any event, someone's phone can ring or ping for some other reason at any time.
Aren't Amber Alerts only used for child abductions?
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  #4943  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Aren't Amber Alerts only used for child abductions?
Yes, but... as mentioned they've been used for COVID alerts recently.

I think maybe referring to the Amber Alert system is a bit of a misnomer. It's really the emergency warning system.

For example we received the same type of alert last September when those tornadoes hit Ottawa and Gatineau. One of my kids was on a city bus when it came through and the whole bus became a cacophony of buzzing alerts at the exact same time.
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  #4944  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 2:51 PM
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There was a false amber alarm for nuclear fallout at Pickering, ON, too.

Anyway, RCMP's providing update at 1 pm EST (2 pm Atlantic time): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbEexm8Aio.
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  #4945  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:02 PM
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We're not really talking about Amber Alert per se, the actual system is the National Public Alerting System

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The National Public Alerting System (French: Système national d'alertes à la population),[1] branded as Alert Ready (French: En Alerte), is the national warning system in Canada. The system consists of infrastructure and standards for the presentation and distribution of public alerts issued by government authorities (including Environment and Climate Change Canada and other provincial public safety agencies), such as weather emergencies, AMBER Alerts, and other emergency notifications, by all broadcasters and last mile distributors in the affected region, including television stations, radio stations, television providers, and LTE mobile networks in the affected region.

The system is based upon the Common Alerting Protocol, and uses the National Alert Aggregation and Dissemination system (NAAD) operated by Pelmorex Media as its backend for distributing alerts to broadcasters, in consort with a style guide that dictates when and how alerts are to be broadcast. Pelmorex also handles public marketing of the system.
So, yes, they could have activated that "beep boop beep boop" alert on everyone's cellphone if they had wanted, to warn them about an active shooter situation. The main concern I would have would be what sort of public panic such an alert might have caused, especially with traffic travelling on the 102.
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  #4946  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:03 PM
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I think the Amber Alerts ride on the emergency warning system. Not the other way around.

The emergency warning system trumps everything on your cellphone, and it does the same for everything on radio and TV stations.
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  #4947  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think the Amber Alerts ride on the emergency warning system. Not the other way around.

The emergency warning system trumps everything on your cellphone, and it does the same for everything on radio and TV stations.
Interesting thing about the emergency warning system for radio and TV is that unlike 30 years ago when an alert would have reached nearly everyone, so many people would be oblivious because those using online resources, streaming TV, etc. would not be reached. I'm sure someone out there must be working on a way to disseminate emergency warnings via Netflix or Youtube...
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  #4948  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:15 PM
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Interesting thing about the emergency warning system for radio and TV is that unlike 30 years ago when an alert would have reached nearly everyone, so many people would be oblivious because those using online resources, streaming TV, etc. would not be reached. I'm sure someone out there must be working on a way to disseminate emergency warnings via Netflix or Youtube...
Satellite radio too I suppose.

Though regarding TV, if you're watching specialty channels like Arts and Entertainment or TLC on Shaw Cable (nod to Western Canada! ) does the warning pop up anyway?
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  #4949  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Initially it looks like they went into the "targeted incident, no risk to public mode". That was understandable. Big city cops also do that all the time.

I think it may have only emerged the following morning (Sunday) that this might be a spree killer.

Still, according to social media posts that I am seeing via the accounts of friends and relatives in Nova Scotia, public alerts/warnings were slow, sporadic and geographically limited.

It's been mentioned the Amber Alert system that interrupts everything on cell phones and radio stations with a shrieking sound, was not used. He killed some people around 10 am or even after that, so perhaps some people did not hear any warnings and ventured out unknowingly. Or maybe they were killed while sheltering at home and he broke in. Or maybe they heard the warnings and didn't care and went out anyway. I guess we don't really know right now.

Still, we have someone like Hali on here who only heard about it later in the day when it was over.

I read some Nova Scotians' messages who ironically noted they used the screeching cell phone alert to tell people to stay inside for COVID-19, but not for this?
Well from the rumours I've heard, it was indeed a targeted attack at first, from whom I've heard were the first victims. Oftentimes in those cases, the assailant does what he felt he wanted to do, and then kills himself. Somewhere along the line it changed. And perhaps that was his original plan, given the length of preparations that he went through. But all that was in his mind, and the RCMP had absolutely NO way of knowing that until they had to act reactively.

At this point, I am willing to cut them some slack, as you have to understand that they are dealing with the largest mass murder in Canadian history.

Again, I don't know what good an amber alert would have been anyhow. Usually the mass hysteria this creates just confuses things further, and would impede the police from doing their job. Things would have transpired so quickly there would not have been time to alert the public as to what was happening, nor would the public have been able to process it IMHO.

An analogy that I came up with, for anybody who has ever played sports, is like trying to predict when the next goal will happen, and trying to give somebody who is not at the rink a head up as to what is going to happen before it happens. Things are fast and loose, and IMHO the police had their hands full trying to coordinate their actions to take this guy down before he could kill anybody else. And, I believe they did an amazing job at it, putting their own lives on the line in the process.

Very hard for me to be critical of any of it, when you realize the enormity and the difficulty of actually dealing with a fast-moving, unpredictable situation like that.

We, the public have been so accustomed to being fed info at a lightning fast pace, we tend to forget sometimes that shit happens quickly out there, and we can't always be protected from every little hazard and threat that is about to present itself. In this case they did the best that anybody could do.
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  #4950  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:24 PM
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I don't want to come across as being overly critical here, but these are questions that will come... inevitably.

It's not just a question of blame, but of improving procedures the next time something like this happens - hopefully never, but one can't be sure of that.

When Polytechnique happened Montreal police had little to no experience with this stuff. The first officers on the scene followed procedures and therefore secured the perimeter so no unwitting victims would enter the shooting zone. But Marc Lépine still kept on shooting and killing people while they were doing that. Had they gone in and engaged him immediately they *might* have saved some lives.

In any even, the procedures have now changed and at least in Montreal/Quebec in such cases job number one is now to take the guy down ASAP.
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  #4951  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:25 PM
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Satellite radio too I suppose.

Though regarding TV, if you're watching specialty channels like Arts and Entertainment or TLC on Shaw Cable (nod to Western Canada! ) does the warning pop up anyway?
I believe from what I've noticed, if you are using your provider's system, the alert will pop up whether you are watching a regular channel, a specialty channel, or even a prerecorded show. (It's hit or miss if you are recording something on your cablebox's PVR if it will also be recorded at that time too).

I suspect when it first started happening, the time of night may have been a factor on not sending an alert out (a desire not to wake people and cause a panic). There should probably have been an alert after; but I do wonder if it may have been a problem of figuring out what region(s) were affected and who had the authority to make an alert.

I'm sure that will be one of the many things to be examined as the dust settles. I'm sure Nova Scotia (and the other provinces) will be reexamining their alert criteria and refining how and when the alerts go out.
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  #4952  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 3:53 PM
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Satellite radio too I suppose.
I have Sirius Satellite Radio, and they conduct tests of the Emergency Broadcast System every so often. Mind you, Sirius coverage spans the entire continent, and I have the feeling that the EMS warnings might notify me about a nuclear strike on Los Angeles, and not necessarily a lost child in NB.
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  #4953  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 4:26 PM
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So there have been at least two public posts, including one by the relevant national organization (all without specifics of course), so I'm comfortable posting some vague info. But I've a friend who works for Corrections Canada (based here, but responsible for Nova Scotia and interacting with staff there all the time) and apparently the death toll is going to be especially hard for their members.

An aside - even a province over, the grapevine details here are so much more than what's in the articles - consistent, not hyperbolic, I assume they'll be correct (i.e. two Corrections people, their relatives, police officer, etc. among the dead) and the Nova Scotia police still have released almost nothing? The tone of the convo here has literally shifted from the tragedy to "WTF are the authorities there doing? We'd have details about a mugging in Buenos Aires faster than this?"


Victims are being identified. Two of them were corrections officers at Springhill Institution. That is probably what triggered the tweet above.
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  #4954  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 4:38 PM
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I've not seen any mention of the shooter's wife. Was she in the picture and is she among the victims?
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  #4955  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't want to come across as being overly critical here, but these are questions that will come... inevitably.

It's not just a question of blame, but of improving procedures the next time something like this happens - hopefully never, but one can't be sure of that.

When Polytechnique happened Montreal police had little to no experience with this stuff. The first officers on the scene followed procedures and therefore secured the perimeter so no unwitting victims would enter the shooting zone. But Marc Lépine still kept on shooting and killing people while they were doing that. Had they gone in and engaged him immediately they *might* have saved some lives.

In any even, the procedures have now changed and at least in Montreal/Quebec in such cases job number one is now to take the guy down ASAP.
Understood. But how do you plan for somebody in a vehicle that looks like an RCMP vehicle wearing a uniform to make that person appear like an RCMP officer?

I'm sure there are always areas in which to learn and improve procedures in the future. I'm more responding to the expectation that we, the public, need to know everything that is happening in real time, an impossible expectation.

My intention is not to defend the RCMP, but just to try to keep it as real as I can, knowing that we all need to have some empathy and understanding for all involved, including the RCMP, who are also grieving the loss of one of their members.
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  #4956  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 4:45 PM
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The scumbag himself was the source for that story. Who else would have been on the spot clicking pictures of a cop car parked in an empty parking lot and then taking the trouble to tip off Frank?

What a lunatic.
Yep. Which is precisely why I went off on that garbage rag called Frank. They were more than happy to give him a public voice so they could use it to advance their own agendas.

I honestly can't believe that people actually read that crap.
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  #4957  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 5:09 PM
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Sounds like the death toll will climb into the 20's.

There are 16 crime scenes. 16. WTH.
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  #4958  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 5:20 PM
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Is anyone watching the live update from RCMP? @q12 I'm guessing you are?
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  #4959  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Understood. But how do you plan for somebody in a vehicle that looks like an RCMP vehicle wearing a uniform to make that person appear like an RCMP officer?

I'm sure there are always areas in which to learn and improve procedures in the future. I'm more responding to the expectation that we, the public, need to know everything that is happening in real time, an impossible expectation.

My intention is not to defend the RCMP, but just to try to keep it as real as I can, knowing that we all need to have some empathy and understanding for all involved, including the RCMP, who are also grieving the loss of one of their members.
I think that in terms of informing the public, we're talking about two fairly different things.

One is keeping the public informed of imminent danger in real time, which I think is of critical importance and needs to be top-notch and transparent.

The other is informing the (mostly just curious) public about the event, mostly after the fact. On this there is more room for debate.
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  #4960  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2020, 5:28 PM
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In any even, the procedures have now changed and at least in Montreal/Quebec in such cases job number one is now to take the guy down ASAP.
IIRC this is what they did when Kimveer Gill started shooting at dawson college. They went straight in and engaged him.
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