Canada Line races toward capacity

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Doug

Rode the Canada Line everyday during rush hour over the past two weeks. Still doesn't feel as over capacity as the south line in Calgary were passengers are so crammed they sometimes fall out when the doors open.

Still gotta push through people to get from your seat to the door. I've had to.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Still gotta push through people to get from your seat to the door. I've had to.

Too bad they can't learn from the Japanese. There, on a crowded subway train where you can't move, everybody gets out, those who want out stay out, and the others re-enter.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Dave2

At VCC-Clark trains either switch platforms via the tail track, or enter and leave via the same track. Either way the same outbound platform is always used.

So is one of the platforms permanently closed? Or are there signs at the ground level concourse directing people towards one set of stair/escalators, while only arriving passengers use the other platform?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by dleung

So is one of the platforms permanently closed? Or are there signs at the ground level concourse directing people towards one set of stair/escalators, while only arriving passengers use the other platform?

The latter. One platform is used for unloading and the other is used for loading.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by dleung

So is one of the platforms permanently closed? Or are there signs at the ground level concourse directing people towards one set of stair/escalators, while only arriving passengers use the other platform?

The track layout around VCC-Clark looks like this:

|------.
        \           VCC Inbound
 |-------`--.------=============------,----<
             \                       /
 |------------`----=============----'------>
                    VCC Outbound

At the concourse level, the signage for VCC inbound says Do Not Enter. That platform generally only ever used for offloading trains.

Sometimes when trains are running behind schedule or when they are doing staff training exercises, trains will be crossed over in front of the station, so the train arrives on the outbound platform for both unloading and loading.

The same sort of pattern (with almost identical switches) exists at Waterfront, and also applies to King George (but with inbound/outbound reversed).

[Doug]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Still gotta push through people to get from your seat to the door. I've had to.

What's a seat? Many CTrain passengers have to get out at every station to allow others to exit. This definitely slows down the system as the doors must stay open longer. Didn't see much of that on the Canada Line.

[ssiguy]

The entire Canada Line and it's Mickey Mouse stations were built on a false assumption......that the line has a capacity of 15,000 pphpd.

This line has 3 colleges along it's route so there are tons of students with bags and more importantly serves YVR. Nearly all people heading to YVR have large, multiple bags or tons of luggage taking up 2 or even 3 spaces. This 15,000 pphpd is based on craming everyone into a set amount of room which never happens and is impossible on a route that serves a downtown, airport, and 3 colleges. This is like when Transport Canada comes out with it's mileage charts but assumes one driver, perfect engine, perfect tire levels, on a flat smooth, just paved highway.

Of course getting the 3rd middle car will help as will more station access for better station mobility and higher frequency but there is another constraint with higher frequency........Waterfront Station. Right now the trains have standard 2 platforms but only one is used as the other has an emergency train.

I understand the reasoning for that and it's a prudent measure but it still leaves the lone platform serving trains arriving in and departing every one minute on a 2 minute frequency, nearly impossible especially at a busy terminus station. They are going to have to build a small downtown off-shute of the line where one train can be parked for the eventuality of a broken down car in the downtown. This would allow Waterfront to REALISTICALLY meet it's ridership potential.

These things will help but it doesn't change the fact that this 15,000 pphpd is lunacy as it makes the assumption that everyone weighs 130 lbs, no one has bags, groceries, napsakes, luggage, baby carriages, or uses a wheelchair. I think it's fair to say that you can easily take MINIMUM 25% off this 15,000 pphpd falsehood.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Just a quick reminder that TransLink's own numbers say that we're at 5,500 pphpd out of a possible 6,100 (8,000 by 2020 with higher frequency). It may FEEL completely full, but from one anecdote to another, I'd say there's room for about 10-20 more people each train; many North Americans just generally tend to want more personal space.

Even assuming that we're full (therefore 30 ppl/train below theoretical capacity), that's still 13,800 pphpd when fully built... or, slightly more than the Expo's current ridership (13,250). Come on, it's not like we're dealing with the Surrey streetcar here.

[cganuelas1995]

I wonder if a moving walkway connecting the Waterfront platform to the Cordova concourse would help.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I understand the reasoning for that and it's a prudent measure but it still leaves the lone platform serving trains arriving in and departing every one minute on a 2 minute frequency, nearly impossible especially at a busy terminus station. They are going to have to build a small downtown off-shute of the line where one train can be parked for the eventuality of a broken down car in the downtown. This would allow Waterfront to REALISTICALLY meet it's ridership potential.

When the line requires higher frequency, there won't be an emergency train sitting there and both platforms will be used. For now, one platform is sufficient for the current service level so they are just using the other platform to store an emergency train (better than leaving it empty I guess)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Reece, you're more or less assuming that TransLink's doing nothing but playing with their dicks right now.

- More trainsets are on the way (ETA 2020), increasing capacity to 8,000 pphpd and reducing crowds to match all the development in Richmond. There's also a Capstan Way station in the works.
- The Arbutus Line is being planned as we speak; even if it gets delayed as long as the Broadway extension, that still leaves five years between opening and your "commutergeddon" deadline.
- I repeat, the future capacity of the Canada - even at only around 90% of the maximum - exceeds the present capacity of the Expo. Somehow, I highly doubt that any kind of densification along Cambie/YVR/Richmond will create enough ridership to exceed what the twice as long, twice as dense Expo has right now.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

To that point part of the reason the Canada Line feels so full is the hilariously poor planning that has seats all facing forward, wasting tons of space and creating a narrow aisle. Hopefully the next set of RS has no centre poles as well similar to Toronto's stock because this tends to jam up the area near the door with people who refuse to move.

That's Chicago-style seating; it's the exact same layout as the Mark IIs and IIIs on the Expo/Millennium (albeit minus a seat on one side). Less poles is a good idea, but longitudinal seating only wastes space, since many people prefer to stand instead of getting sandwiched between two people.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The Canada Line needs more capacity than any line in Surrey because its connecting far more high capacity lines, whereas the LRT is at the edge of the system. Likely to see far more riders transferring onto the CL on the way to their final destination.

So Surrey will never get its own high-capacity transfers, or its own downtown, or more rapid transit?

If we're going to talk about capacity and planning ahead, then I'd future-proof for an extension to White Rock and Coquitlam, commuter rail from downtown Vancouver to Chilliwack past Newton, several more LRT lines feeding the SNG/Langley backbone, and a downtown Whalley/Guildford Centre that rivals Metrotown and Brentwood; Surrey's plan makes the Canada Line look like the friggin' Shinkansen by comparison!

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Reece, you're more or less assuming that TransLink's doing nothing but playing with their dicks right now.

- More trainsets are on the way (ETA 2020), increasing capacity to 8,000 pphpd and reducing crowds to match all the development in Richmond. There's also a Capstan Way station in the works.
- The Arbutus Line is being planned as we speak; even if it gets delayed as long as the Broadway extension, that still leaves five years between opening and your "commutergeddon" deadline.
- I repeat, the future capacity of the Canada - even at only around 90% of the maximum - exceeds the present capacity of the Expo. Somehow, I highly doubt that any kind of densification along Cambie/YVR/Richmond will create enough ridership to exceed what the twice as long, twice as dense Expo has right now.



That's Chicago-style seating; it's the exact same layout as the Mark IIs and IIIs on the Expo/Millennium (albeit minus a seat on one side). Less poles is a good idea, but longitudinal seating only wastes space, since many people prefer to stand instead of getting sandwiched between two people.



So Surrey will never get its own high-capacity transfers, or its own downtown, or more rapid transit?

If we're going to talk about capacity and planning ahead, then I'd future-proof for an extension to White Rock and Coquitlam, commuter rail from downtown Vancouver to Chilliwack past Newton, several more LRT lines feeding the SNG/Langley backbone, and a downtown Whalley/Guildford Centre that rivals Metrotown and Brentwood; Surrey's plan makes the Canada Line look like the friggin' Shinkansen by comparison!

Perfectly said.

Surrey’s goal is to become the secondary downtown of Metro Vancouver, and given its geographical central location the L-Line is being far far far more underbuilt than the Canada Line was.

In fact regarding future growth the Canada Line services a far more restricted corridor than the L-Line will.

Easiest way to look at it is which line would I rather live / be serviced by, the Canada Line or Surrey’s planned L-Line... oh, I know, the frequent grade separated automated train with 3 times the build out capacity!

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[nname]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Adding a station at Capstan way is going to increase people on the system not reduce it, and the current Expo Line capacity is supposed to be somewhere around 16k, which is far higher than the likely max of the Cl at about 13k (maybe 14k if we improve flow in key stations).

Expo Line have a huge catchment area that includes most of SoF.... would South Delta and South Surrey / White Rock grow to 700k population one day? Even if some day population in South Surrey exploded to 500k... they can still divert some of the passenger to King George to use the Expo Line... But then Expo Line would be full since there would probably be more than 3 millions in Surrey and close to 10 millions in the Metro area.....

[Metro-One]

I always enjoy people pulling numbers out of thin air.

The official design documents state 15 000 pphpd upon full build out (3 car trains max frequency with station expansions). A few other station modifications (such as secondary entrances at key stations, second platforms at YVR (as planned) and Bridhouse if need be (potentially the most expensive upgrade, but far away from unrealistic) will ensure that this number will be met.

Also find it funny how on this thread Reecemartin (and a couple others famous for this same tired dissproven argument) completely low balls the potential (dismissing the official design documents created by professionals in the industry) of this line, but then pulls a 180 on the Surrey LRT thread, highly inflating that line’s potential ridership and flat out ignoring Translink official figures for full build out (which, line the Canada Line, will also require a second round of major station modifications).

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

When the line requires higher frequency, there won't be an emergency train sitting there and both platforms will be used. For now, one platform is sufficient for the current service level so they are just using the other platform to store an emergency train (better than leaving it empty I guess)

I didn't realize that so thanks for the info. That said Translink still needs a one train storage area downtown for the inevitable train breakdown. It will be VERY hard to get a spare train going downtown when they have to come from Bridgeport with trains running every 2 minutes.

These are the problems when transit lines are built for one-time events and/or political expediency........they are viewed as nothing more than ribbon cutting ceremonies and one-time event infrastructure and not for long-term transit/transportation viability. You don't build a transit line to keep things running for 20 years but rather 120 years.

Thank God Toronto and Montreal didn't follow Vancouver's Mickey Mouse station design when building their respective Yonge & Ste.Catherines lines.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I didn't realize that so thanks for the info. That said Translink still needs a one train storage area downtown for the inevitable train breakdown. It will be VERY hard to get a spare train going downtown when they have to come from Bridgeport with trains running every 2 minutes.

These are the problems when transit lines are built for one-time events and/or political expediency........they are viewed as nothing more than ribbon cutting ceremonies and one-time event infrastructure and not for long-term transit/transportation viability. You don't build a transit line to keep things running for 20 years but rather 120 years.

Thank God Toronto and Montreal didn't follow Vancouver's Mickey Mouse station design when building their respective Yonge & Ste.Catherines lines.

Seeing how those lines were opened in the 1950s and 1960s it would have been pretty hard for them to follow the Canada Line... (back when train length was far more important due to lower frequencies).

Also the Expo Line would be their “respective” comparisons, especially the Yonge Line considering the roles they play within each transit system.

It is too bad that Toronto did not continue with its original path and is now involving at grade LRTs where things should be duly grade separated with its new expansions.

[nname]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I didn't realize that so thanks for the info. That said Translink still needs a one train storage area downtown for the inevitable train breakdown. It will be VERY hard to get a spare train going downtown when they have to come from Bridgeport with trains running every 2 minutes.

That's what the tail tracks are for, and there are 2 at Waterfront, 1 each at Brighouse and YVR. The Brighouse is used during peak hours, but not the other three.