NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[mrnyc]

nice renders.

som is the best, shop the most practical, h3 looks like it continues to be too much of a rat maze and dsr is a wildcard.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

My point is simply that it can be done. The only reason it wouldn't be able to be done would be if everyone involved said it couldn't be done. Then of course it wouldn't be done. But we all know it could. And I only used Calatrava as an example... I'm pretty sure that was clear.

My personal opinion is probably the same as anyone else's on this forum: the old Penn Station was gorgeous and the "new" one sucks. MSG houses millionaire athletes getting paid to play games. The transportation of millions of working people is much more important than a ball game. But they need a place to play while their new arena is built (whenever that happens) and building a new Penn Station that's planned for distant future traffic and a beautiful aesthetic is paramount.

Of course it can be done, but as you note, it's really difficult to get from here to there. The construction process will take several years at least, and the Knicks/Rangers will need to find alternate venues in the interim. Maybe the Barclays Center could host them, but they've already got a pretty full schedule. They could play in Jersey at Prudential or Izod, but that's difficult to access for New York fans (and Izod may be torn down before 10 years is up).

Then there's the cost issue. It would not surprise me if it proved cheaper to construct an arena and a station on separate sites rather than demolish and rebuild MSG in its place while thousands of travelers use the station underneath.

The issue is not whether an arena and train station can theoretically coexist (of course they can) but whether that combination can be built on the MSG/Penn site, with architectural dignity, for a reasonable cost, within a reasonable timeframe.

[De Minimis NY]

After over 50 years of scurrying, we may yet live to enter the city like gods once again.

http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/06/...t-to-10-years/


"In the latest match at Madison Square Garden, City Council Speaker Christine Quinn nabbed the winning shot against the Dolan family, who control the stadium, Crain’s reported.

Two City Council committees approved a 10-year permit for MSG, with the zoning and franchise subcommittee approving the measure by a vote of 7-0. The full land use committee followed suit, voting for the measure 18-1.

The Dolan family hoped to be granted the permit in perpetuity, arguing that such an arrangement is the case for other athletic facilities in the city. But civic groups fought against the measure, arguing instead for a long-term permit that might nudge negotiations over relocating the arena so that Penn Station might be rebuilt and expanded.

The City Planning Commission previously called for a 15-year term on the permit, but Quinn, along with Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer and a group of activists, reduced the timeframe to 10 years.

“There is a lot of work ahead of us to build the train station NYC desperately needs, but today the City Council and Speaker Quinn in particular have joined in that effort and taken a very important step forward.” Raju Mann, director of planning at the Municipal Art Society, who was present for the votes, told Crain’s.

A spokeswoman for MSG declined to comment to Crain’s."

[NYC2ATX]

Well, she's got my vote.

[dumbo]

Originally Posted by StatenIslander237

Well, she's got my vote.

+1
I hope NYC can keep this momentum!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by CCs77

The thing is that back then transportaion was downsizing. The original Penn Station belonged to Pennsylvania Railroad, a private company, and Amtrak didn't exist yet. The company was near to bankrupcy, the cost of maintain the station was high and with railroad traffic plummeting, the station wasn't longer economically sustainable. They decided to make a smaller station and sell or lease air rights to more proffitable uses.

Grand Central Terminal was about to have a similar fate. The New York Central Railroad, owner of GCT, first build the PanAm Building (now Met-Life) that didn't affected the station and permited to buy some time for it. Anyway, they indeed wanted to demolish the station and some plans were made, nevertheless, given the opposition and mourn that drove the demolition of Penn Station some years earlier, made that the City declared GCT a landmark, saving it.

And that phenomenon is not unique for New York, all over the US, many grand, old train station have been either demolished or abandoned, sometimes being replaced by stations that looks just like a joke, such as the case of Cleveland, Buffalo or Detroit.

In other cases after years of abandonment, and threats of demolition, the grand stations were bring back to the former glory. That's the case of the magnificent Cincinnati Union Terminal, today mainly used as a museum center, housing various institutions like History, Natural History & Science and Children Museums. After two decades without passenger service, in 1991 it was restored, although with a very few weekly services.


The current Buffalo Station



Current Cleveland Station



Current Detroit Station

Dear god, these are utterly wretched.

[ablerock]

Originally Posted by CCs77

The thing is that back then transportaion was downsizing. The original Penn Station belonged to Pennsylvania Railroad, a private company, and Amtrak didn't exist yet. The company was near to bankrupcy, the cost of maintain the station was high and with railroad traffic plummeting, the station wasn't longer economically sustainable. They decided to make a smaller station and sell or lease air rights to more proffitable uses.

I'm impressed by the city's wisdom to give them only 50 years in the first place.

They wisely knew NYC is ever-changing and the situation at Penn Station and MSG would need reviewing by a future generation.

I mean, one can imagine a bizarro alternate-reality where train usage continues to suffer, public transit is unfashionable, cars totally dominate NCY, Roller Derby is the most popular sport in the world, and MSG and the city are instead cooperating to shrink Penn Station and give MSG a fancy new underground parking garage.

[Rail>Auto]

First of all that SOM rendering is just flat out amazing. With the high speed rail boom coming I certainly hope something like that gets built some place somewhere.

With that being said, looking at the renderings, it appears the tracks go East/West underneath MSG. If that is indeed the case, the solution to me seems to be to demolish 2 Penn Plaza next to MSG and construct a new Penn Station there. This would solve two problems at once because it would create a new Penn Station while creating a new eastern entrance to the Garden. If the tracks don't go under 2 Penn, simply build the station there and construct tunnels to the existing area.

As for the tenants that would be lost with 2 Penn, it would seem possible to build 4 smaller buildings wedged in between the Garden and the corners of the block in similar fashion to the Barclays Center. But with Hudson Rail Yards and the New WTC looking for tenants it may not be needed.

I know I am the only one who thinks this but I like MSG and I like its design. Yes it was a complete shame they tore down old penn just like they tore down the original MSGs. But now that the current Garden is there, it would be a shame to lose it as well. And yes, the exterior can be made to look nice...

http://www.ellerbebecket.com/uploads...xt_aerial1.jpg

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

Madison Square Garden Loses Its Totally Epic Permit War
Wednesday, July 24, 2013, by Hana R. Alberts


After an absolutely intense battle, Madison Square Garden has just been stymied. The City Council voted today to grant the embattled arena just 10 more years to operate in its current spot—it had been gunning for a permit in perpetuity—with the idea that it could soon relocate to make way for a grander, snazzier, starchitect-designed Penn Station. The Municipal Art Society, which has essentially championed throwing MSG under the bus to make way for a new Penn and along the way gained support from politicians like Scott Stringer and Christine Quinn as well as bold-faced names like Barry Diller and Bette Midler, is obviously thrilled. Quoth MAS chief Vin Cipolla: "Great projects are in New Yorkers' DNA, they define who we are and who we become." Hold your horses, buddy. We've got awhile before anything actually happens on the site.

Meanwhile, the official word from MSG itself, for which Spike Lee and various sports greats advocated in front of the Council (to no avail, apparently), reflects... avoidance? Denial? Optimism?

Madison Square Garden has operated at its current site for generations, and has been proud to bring New Yorkers some of the greatest and most iconic moments in sports and entertainment. We now look forward to the reopening of the arena in fall 2013, following the completion of our historic three-year, nearly billion dollar transformation, which will ensure our future is as bright as our celebrated past.

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2013/0...permit_war.php


http://ny.curbed.com/uploads/MSGMarquee.jpg

[Towersteve]

While the Garden is historic.. lets not forget.. it's not the original Garden. It's the 4th location for the Madison Square Garden.
Penn Station is a monstrosity and needs to go. There is plenty of nice options for an arena elsewhere. This should definitely be redeveloped.
However.. it was stupid to wait until after they began a $1 billion remodeling project to be underway to limit their license.

[Eidolon]

The Dolans better hurry up, find a new site and build fast, 2023 isn't that far off!

[Mister Uptempo]

Originally Posted by Towersteve

However.. it was stupid to wait until after they began a $1 billion remodeling project to be underway to limit their license.

The special permit that allowed MSG to operate at its current location was issued in 1963, with a 50-year duration. The Dolans knew full well that the permit was to expire in 2013, with no guarantee of the length of a renewed permit, or even being granted a renewal at all.

I think the Dolans were under the impression that spending a boatload of money would all but assure them a long-term renewal, if not one into perpetuity as they requested.

[chris08876]

Just up on CNN. Some main points:

========================================
Madison Square Garden, one of the world's iconic sports and entertainment arenas, has been given a decade to relocate after a vote by the New York City Council on Wednesday amid efforts to renovate the equally well-known Penn Station that sits below it.

The council voted to approve a "special permit" that will allow the arena to operate for 10 years while its management seeks to relocate, according to a news release.

The 47-1 vote comes after years of advocacy from city officials and independent groups who have sought to renovate and expand the bustling Pennsylvania Station. Madison Square Garden's 50-year land-use permit expired in January

"Imagine 220 mph bullet trains that sweep you to D.C. or Boston in 90 minutes or less. These plans are on the table, but they can only be realized with a modern, renovated Penn Station," said Manhattan Borough President and city comptroller candidate Scott M. Stringer. "That is not possible as long as the Garden sits squarely on top of the nation's busiest rail transit hub."

==============================
Dominique Debucquoy-Dodley, CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/25/us/new...html?hpt=us_c1

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Towersteve

While the Garden is historic.. lets not forget.. it's not the original Garden. It's the 4th location for the Madison Square Garden.
Penn Station is a monstrosity and needs to go. There is plenty of nice options for an arena elsewhere. This should definitely be redeveloped.
However.. it was stupid to wait until after they began a $1 billion remodeling project to be underway to limit their license.

yeah, about that $1B. this is a dolan figure. dubious. true they did spend some coin refurbishing, but they have a vested interest in overstating how much. besides, don't cry for them as its not like that won't be made up to them in whatever deal is done to get them out of there.

[Submariner]

I hope scott stringer understands that the disastrous public/private clusterf**k of state agencies and private companies that own the NEC is the real reason why 220 MPH trains are out of the question.

Originally Posted by chris08876

Just up on CNN. Some main points:

========================================
Madison Square Garden, one of the world's iconic sports and entertainment arenas, has been given a decade to relocate after a vote by the New York City Council on Wednesday amid efforts to renovate the equally well-known Penn Station that sits below it.

The council voted to approve a "special permit" that will allow the arena to operate for 10 years while its management seeks to relocate, according to a news release.

The 47-1 vote comes after years of advocacy from city officials and independent groups who have sought to renovate and expand the bustling Pennsylvania Station. Madison Square Garden's 50-year land-use permit expired in January

"Imagine 220 mph bullet trains that sweep you to D.C. or Boston in 90 minutes or less. These plans are on the table, but they can only be realized with a modern, renovated Penn Station," said Manhattan Borough President and city comptroller candidate Scott M. Stringer. "That is not possible as long as the Garden sits squarely on top of the nation's busiest rail transit hub."

==============================
Dominique Debucquoy-Dodley, CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/25/us/new...html?hpt=us_c1

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by Submariner

I hope scott stringer understands that the disastrous public/private clusterf**k of state agencies and private companies that own the NEC is the real reason why 220 MPH trains are out of the question.

Yea I would agree with that. The politics alone would kill such trains. Not to mention the time. This isn't China where talking about. The time, bureaucracy, and money it would make this happen not anytime soon. Plus the rail lines would require overhauls being antiquated for such speeds. Between that, and the incompetence that is NJ Transit, this will be a nightmare.

[NYC2ATX]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Yea I would agree with that. The politics alone would kill such trains. Not to mention the time. This isn't China where talking about. The time, bureaucracy, and money it would make this happen not anytime soon. Plus the rail lines would require overhauls being antiquated for such speeds. Between that, and the incompetence that is NJ Transit, this will be a nightmare.

I'm not really holding my breath for bullet trains here given the present situation of things...a short- to medium-term solution would really be to do what Amtrak is already doing, making efforts to decently increase the speeds on the Northeast Corridor.

..and, of course, I'm holding out for Elon Musk's Hyperloop.

[JACKinBeantown]

This is great news. Penn Station is an embarrassing pit and needs to go. MSG is an arena for sports and concerts. Arenas can go anywhere as is proved in other cities... or in NYC: Yankee Stadium, Giants Stadium, Flushing Meadows, etc. get sold out all the time and they're not in Manhattan. I'm sure if the Dolans can afford to spend "a billion dollars" refurbishing MSG, they can afford to finance a new arena pretty much anywhere they choose.

[Submariner]

The hyperloop is nonsesne. Do you know how difficult it would be to maintain a near perfect vacuum in a series of tubes thousands of miles long? It's difficult to maintain a perfect vacuum in highly expensive and complicated ovens of just a few cubic yards in volume.

I'm actually on the NEC as I type this. Between private lands foolishly allowed right next to the tracks (preventing expansion) the quagmire of public and private entities involved in it's ownership, etc it would be very expensive and time consuming to do so. As anti-big government as I am, with things like infrastructure you need a consolidated agency that both implement improvements across state lines. Even continual improvements made by Amtrak wont solve the problems of antiquated centenary, lane-constrained lines and tracks not designed to take 200MPH + trains. Given the continued increase in road congestion, high speed trains make more sense (assuming they can keep costs to a reasonable level)

Originally Posted by StatenIslander237

I'm not really holding my breath for bullet trains here given the present situation of things...a short- to medium-term solution would really be to do what Amtrak is already doing, making efforts to decently increase the speeds on the Northeast Corridor.

..and, of course, I'm holding out for Elon Musk's Hyperloop.

[BiggieSmalls]

Would it be technically easier to maintain some vacuum in a subterranean tunnel? I believe Musk's hyper loop is envisioned to be deep below ground using modern tunnel boring technology to create straight "shots" and minimize right of way issues.

We'll know more in august when musk provides more information on his idea.