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  #241  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2014, 4:06 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibba View Post
That's what SOAR gave me the impression of, that the court will occupy the NE corner. They are also pushing for a more pedestrian experience at ground level that includes adding retail as an option.
^ Oh, ok, in your previous post you said NW corner.

Having a motor court on the NE corner makes more sense to me, and I'm curious if they will still keep separate lobbies for the condo owners vs apartment dwellers.

I realize that condo owners need their privacy and are paying a premium for it, but if you look at the apartments across the street at 500 N LSD (also by Related), they have studio apartments renting for $2300 a month. You're not exactly sharing your lobby with a bunch of hoodlums, I guess is what I'm trying to say (aside for the fact that the CHA is apparently leasing some of these very pricy units to CHA tenants, a practice which I find appalling)
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  #242  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2014, 7:38 PM
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^Yeah, my mistake--typo. And yeah, separation of renters and owners doesn't seem incredibly important, but perhaps that idea is still strong in wealth culture.
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  #243  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2014, 7:41 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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It should be way more modern. That's the modern part of Chicago. Total disappointment, this shouldn't be built there.
It should be modern because the pomo is a total farce in this day in age. It's not like the original days of the style when you were getting 900 N Michigan, clad in all it's limestone glory, and merely a design that suggested styles of the past. It's not like Omni where it is clad in granite and bold glass that again, simply imitates the massing of an antique armoire. These designs are pathetic attempts to ape the past with wildly inferior materials. There is nothing new about them except that they are by far the most poorly executed designs ever built in their respective styles. There is not a single architect alive today that can match the skills of a Daniel Burnham or a HH Richardson. They just don't have the training or the knowledge of the tradition. They don't have the materials to do this.

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Having a motor court on the NE corner makes more sense to me, and I'm curious if they will still keep separate lobbies for the condo owners vs apartment dwellers.
Yes they will have separate lobbies. Looks like there will be separate cores in the West and South legs of the L with the shorter core serving the apartments and the taller core serving the Condos.
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  #244  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 1:01 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Was just thinking about GREC being the architect of record for this proposal. How ridiculous is that? A talented firm that can actually design has to (yes, they're being paid for it and I'm sure they don't mind that - and it's a big project) has to put all the drawings together for the design of this awful hack Rober AM Stren? If anything, the roles should be completely reversed. Stern shouldn't in fact be a designer of buildings as his atrocious track record amply demonstrates. He should be if anything just executing drawings for the multitude of architects in the field with real design talent and a basic minimum aesthetic sense.....
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  #245  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 3:29 PM
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Stern shouldn't in fact be a designer of buildings as his atrocious track record amply demonstrates.
He shouldn't be designing anything other than theme parks...
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  #246  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 10:55 AM
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I've got to say, I'm slightly shocked by all the negative responses towards this project. RAMS is a bit of a superstar right now in my hometown New York, and I'm sure any of you who follow the NY threads are aware of this. His recent projects have garnered tremendous praise for resurrecting the city's early-20th-century predisposition for limestone-clad structures.

I totally get the skepticism after being somewhat disappointed with Park Tower, Elysian, and other RiNo Beige Syndrome sufferers, but based on his track record in NY, Chicago should be very excited to be landing this project. Not only is it breaking the 600'-ish Streeterville plateau, but at least for me, it's a welcome break from the mostly unremarkable blue glass towers in that area. You can't tell me you'd rather a taller 500 LSD or something instead. This is a worthy peak for the neighborhood.

If you doubt me, visit the threads for 520 Park Avenue (most similar to this), 220 Central Park South, or 30 Park Place...or read the successes of his first completed project 15 Central Park West. You won't be disappointed
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  #247  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 12:27 PM
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^ Why do New Yorkers always come here thinking Chicago should be "thankful" to get a project, whether crappy or not, from a New York architect?

I'm just saying. This project is probably going to be just like the dime-a-dozen crap put up over the years in Chicago by local architects: historic-looking buildings using cheap materials. I don't give 2 shits if some dude from New York decided to do it or some guy from Bangkok, Thailand. It's the same shit, different dude. End of story.

Having said that, I don't despise faux historicism as much as the others here, and I'm happy that at least there won't be a parking podium. But that would have been the case with any architect, as the parking garage is already built.
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  #248  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 1:09 PM
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^It's not about Stern being from New York. It's because he knows his craft very, very, well. He's not some kid looking at picture books and trying to figure out how the details of a historic skyscraper worked. I think some of you are being misled by a gauzy, indistinct rendering, and thus projecting your own fears of faux historicism onto this building. I have every confidence this will be as well-composed and nicely detailed as NBC Tower.
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  #249  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NYC2ATX View Post
I've got to say, I'm slightly shocked by all the negative responses towards this project. RAMS is a bit of a superstar right now in my hometown New York, and I'm sure any of you who follow the NY threads are aware of this. His recent projects have garnered tremendous praise for resurrecting the city's early-20th-century predisposition for limestone-clad structures.

I totally get the skepticism after being somewhat disappointed with Park Tower, Elysian, and other RiNo Beige Syndrome sufferers, but based on his track record in NY, Chicago should be very excited to be landing this project. Not only is it breaking the 600'-ish Streeterville plateau, but at least for me, it's a welcome break from the mostly unremarkable blue glass towers in that area. You can't tell me you'd rather a taller 500 LSD or something instead. This is a worthy peak for the neighborhood.

If you doubt me, visit the threads for 520 Park Avenue (most similar to this), 220 Central Park South, or 30 Park Place...or read the successes of his first completed project 15 Central Park West. You won't be disappointed
This is always interesting to me. How NYC seems to be really excited about PoMo designs and Chicago would rather have a parking lot than more PoMo. I can't help but wonder if this has something to do with Chicago's architecture being more regarded for it's innovation than it's age. Maybe we're just not interested in nostalgia here in Chicago.
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  #250  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
He shouldn't be designing anything other than theme parks...
Although I know where you're coming from, I can't even bring myself to wish that on theme parks......
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  #251  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 2:10 PM
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^It's not about Stern being from New York. It's because he knows his craft very, very, well. He's not some kid looking at picture books and trying to figure out how the details of a historic skyscraper worked. I think some of you are being misled by a gauzy, indistinct rendering, and thus projecting your own fears of faux historicism onto this building. I have every confidence this will be as well-composed and nicely detailed as NBC Tower.
I hope you don't actually believe this. If you do, you're deluding yourself. His portfolio of faux historisist junk speaks completely to the contrary. Trying to somehow equate AM Stern with the talent of an Adrian Smith is just embarrassing.
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  #252  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 2:27 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by rlw777 View Post
This is always interesting to me. How NYC seems to be really excited about PoMo designs and Chicago would rather have a parking lot than more PoMo. I can't help but wonder if this has something to do with Chicago's architecture being more regarded for it's innovation than it's age. Maybe we're just not interested in nostalgia here in Chicago.
When I look at New York architecture at present, I see an awful lot of very high quality modern, and some pretty innovative design. Very, very little in neo-historic, traditional, and most or all of it (see AM Stern), predictably quite bad. If you're reacting to a sense of enthusiasm in New threads, I'd #1) chalk it up to just an appreciation for 'something very different', a dramatic departure from the dominant modern, and perhaps #2) my take is that the proportion of Chicago forummers that are deeply knowledgable and passionate about architecture is quite a bit greater than in New York..........eg, the average dude on the street in either city - or anywhere else in the country might be so uninformed or aesthetically enlightened to look at an AM Stern and think "gee whiz, that's pretty nice", or some other similar mental defecation.


Finally, for those (Mr Downtown and all others) who kid themselves into thinking new traditional can be done right today - especially by Robert AM Stern, but by almost anybody, really - I might offer contradicting exhibit A as photos of Sterns very tall downtown building that is now rising (the part that already has its facade! ) - I think it's 99 Church? maybe - against the backdrop of the Woolworth building. Take a look, and think about it (although if you're thinking hard, you're doing something wrong)......
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  #253  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 2:32 PM
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I see a curb cut for parking entrance, but none for parking exit. Is it shared? Or is it like the Hotel California?
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  #254  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 3:08 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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^^^ Maestro Stern probably just forgot to add one to the design, he was too busy studiously perfecting the perfect historicist precast facade!

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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
^ Why do New Yorkers always come here thinking Chicago should be "thankful" to get a project, whether crappy or not, from a New York architect?
Come now, don't you know that Chicago would have no skyscrapers at all if it weren't for NYC. We should be thankful they've allowed us to even have one building.

(This is purely sarcastic and not meant to be city vs city).

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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Finally, for those (Mr Downtown and all others) who kid themselves into thinking new traditional can be done right today - especially by Robert AM Stern, but by almost anybody, really - I might offer contradicting exhibit A as photos of Sterns very tall downtown building that is now rising (the part that already has its facade! ) - I think it's 99 Church? maybe - against the backdrop of the Woolworth building. Take a look, and think about it (although if you're thinking hard, you're doing something wrong)......
Yeah, his buildings in NYC also suck. How is this even remotely reminiscent of prewar Deco? It's just another 432 Park but decorated in faux deco precast:



Seriously, it's just a stick with some very sickly little setbacks, it's nothing like the prewar deco spires with REAL grace and proportion like Chrysler or 70 Pine Street or the neo-classical towers like 40 Wall and Woolworth. To even suggest that something 99 Church is even REMOTELY close to being in the same league as those classic towers is heresy. It's just pathetically bad when you actually compare it to its "peers" (if you can even call it that) in lower Manhattan. How does Stern have a "mastery" of the classic styles when what he produces is basically a featureless rod adorned with low grade materials that doesn't come within a mile of the true masterpieces.

99 Church is worse than Elysian in my opinion. At least Elysian has some setbacks before the top and attempts a crown (which ended up being corrugated warehouse siding). Look at how finely detailed this bunker is:



Photos from Nyguy

Conclusion: Stern is a total hack.

Last edited by LouisVanDerWright; Sep 19, 2014 at 3:43 PM.
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  #255  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 3:19 PM
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I do think some of this style needs to bleed east and some streeterville glass needs to bleed west into river north, clearly

mix it up
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  #256  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
I hope you don't actually believe this. If you do, you're deluding yourself. His portfolio of faux historisist junk speaks completely to the contrary. Trying to somehow equate AM Stern with the talent of an Adrian Smith is just embarrassing.
He's not deluding himself; rather you, TUP and others who only discuss architectural design in absolutist terms are deluding yourselves in thinking that only ONE type of architecture is appropriate for a massive metropolis like Chicago.

Sam, as much as I appreciate your input and opinions on lots of items within the forum (in addition to that of others, such as TUP), sometimes your are not served well by taking on immutable positions related to design. I have to remind myself of this oftentimes as well, and I work in this silly profession, but variety is the spice of life...and in this instance, I personally would rather see a RAMSA design than a PoMo/Lucien LaGrange shlockfest because Stern DOES have the credibility and the know-how (he's the f**king Dean at Yale, for Chrissake!! Get over it), and he knows his clients and market extremely well.

Whereas his most recent building a la Defense in Paris is kind of amazing and very contemporary (Exhibit A in showing that he CAN design contemporary architectural statements), his residential projects, most notably his high-rises in Manhattan tend to be more of what we see for this massive phallus planned for Chicago, because he was hired to cater to a very specific clientele that the developer wants to attract: wealthy, most likely late 30s - early 50s, Waspy transplants (either outside of Illinois or from the suburbs), moving to the City for the first time for work, social needs/desires; more importantly, catering to clients who really don't care about argument of pioneering contemporary vs. historist neo-traditional pastiches, because frankly, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, many in these forums cannot see the forest through the trees when it comes to high-rise construction. AMLI's river north tower design sucks, but it's providing housing for hundreds of new residents who can afford it and more importantly WANT to live there and are bringing in countless new dollars to the immediate surrounding economy. And the same thing goes for this RAMSA-designed tower: considering that it's a seemingly well-designed highrise that will potentially command sizable rents and sales figures, in addition to expanding the core-City population and the attached wealth that comes with that, isn't it still a win-win, regardless of it not being a 'modern masterpiece' of glass, steel and concrete?

A lot of intelligent, sophisticated and worldly people who can afford to live in any type of building/unit/house they want are turned off by avant-garde contemporary design; it can be seen as cold, unforgiving and at times very unlivable. And if that's all that you are designing or your developer/client is trying to market, you're unnecessarily diminishing you're pool of potential buyers because of a fetishistic mentality that only ONE type of design is appropriate for a high-end market.

But that's just my opinion.
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  #257  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 3:34 PM
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^It's not about Stern being from New York. It's because he knows his craft very, very, well. He's not some kid looking at picture books and trying to figure out how the details of a historic skyscraper worked. I think some of you are being misled by a gauzy, indistinct rendering, and thus projecting your own fears of faux historicism onto this building. I have every confidence this will be as well-composed and nicely detailed as NBC Tower.
NBC Tower is a limestone veneer, not precast and that's the difference. The quality of material makes a big difference.

Does Stern know his craft? Debatable. What he needs to learn is Chicago and it's history of great architecture and design. The setting is just as important.

Maybe he should look at pictures book to see how details work in historic skyscrapers, because they did work and when it comes to recent examples of retro-postmodernism, those details are lacking or disjointed.
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  #258  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sentinel View Post
He's not deluding himself; rather you, TUP and others who only discuss architectural design in absolutist terms are deluding yourselves in thinking that only ONE type of architecture is appropriate for a massive metropolis like Chicago.

Sam, as much as I appreciate your input and opinions on lots of items within the forum (in addition to that of others, such as TUP), sometimes your are not served well by taking on immutable positions related to design. I have to remind myself of this oftentimes as well, and I work in this silly profession, but variety is the spice of life...and in this instance, I personally would rather see a RAMSA design than a PoMo/Lucien LaGrange shlockfest because Stern DOES have the credibility and the know-how (he's the f**king Dean at Yale, for Chrissake!! Get over it), and he knows his clients and market extremely well.

Whereas his most recent building a la Defense in Paris is kind of amazing and very contemporary (Exhibit A in showing that he CAN design contemporary architectural statements), his residential projects, most notably his high-rises in Manhattan tend to be more of what we see for this massive phallus planned for Chicago, because he was hired to cater to a very specific clientele that the developer wants to attract: wealthy, most likely late 30s - early 50s, Waspy transplants (either outside of Illinois or from the suburbs), moving to the City for the first time for work, social needs/desires; more importantly, catering to clients who really don't care about argument of pioneering contemporary vs. historist neo-traditional pastiches, because frankly, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, many in these forums cannot see the forest through the trees when it comes to high-rise construction. AMLI's river north tower design sucks, but it's providing housing for hundreds of new residents who can afford it and more importantly WANT to live there and are bringing in countless new dollars to the immediate surrounding economy. And the same thing goes for this RAMSA-designed tower: considering that it's a seemingly well-designed highrise that will potentially command sizable rents and sales figures, in addition to expanding the core-City population and the attached wealth that comes with that, isn't it still a win-win, regardless of it not being a 'modern masterpiece' of glass, steel and concrete?

A lot of intelligent, sophisticated and worldly people who can afford to live in any type of building/unit/house they want are turned off by avant-garde contemporary design; it can be seen as cold, unforgiving and at times very unlivable. And if that's all that you are designing or your developer/client is trying to market, you're unnecessarily diminishing you're pool of potential buyers because of a fetishistic mentality that only ONE type of design is appropriate for a high-end market.

But that's just my opinion.
Whoa, not sure why you needed to throw my name in there. I've always had this viewpoint. Again, faux historic buildings are not my favorite but I don't have nearly the disdain for them as some of the purists on here, and I agree that variety is the spice of life.

My biggest pet peeves is the crap built in River North in the late 90's/early 00's with the large podia. Those to me are the bottom-feeders in regards to design. I'll take this Stern tower over any of them any day of the week, even though it is only a small upgrade. Heck, even Elysian was better than the crap Lowenberg was shitting out during his heyday.
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  #259  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 3:54 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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PS, I believe this tower actually DOES have a podium of some unknown size. The additional parking entrance on the floor plan suggests that is the case, it's just much better disguised than the atrocities in RiNo.
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  #260  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2014, 4:03 PM
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NBC Tower is a limestone veneer, not precast and that's the difference. The quality of material makes a big difference.
Look more closely. From Architectural Record April 1990: "NBC's curtainwall comprises small pieces of sawcut Indiana limestone affixed to larger precast-concrete panels. Spandrels are deeply patterned dark-green precast concrete, finished with a semigloss coating reminiscent of terra cotta."
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