The "last eastern city" and "first western city"

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Chicago 87W is firmly in the midwest and is a midwestern city.

Atlanta is the last (or is it first) eastern city. 84 degrees west -- really not too much farther east than Chicago - which puts it at the same line of latitude as Cincinnati and further west than Detroit. GA is an eastern state, one of the original 13 colonies in the eastern time zone.

You can't rely on longitude. Parts of Ohio and West Virginia are "more Eastern" than the Atlantic beaches in Jacksonville; some NW Alberta cities that are east of the Rockies are "more Western" than direct Pacific oceanfront cities like Santa Monica and San Diego.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Obadno

IVe heard Easterners consider Oklahoma southwest and it just feels so completely wrong to me, Oklahoma is dead central, Id be more likely to consider it a blend between Midwest and Southern, or Little Texas.

The westernmost tip of the finger of Oklahoma is really Southwestern in terms of scenery and architecture, though.

Oklahoma goes from touching the South (Arkansas) to touching New Mexico. Very few states have that kind of span. Texas matches it, and I'd say California too (touching both Oregon and Mexico). I'm not just talking in terms of distance, but also scenery and culture.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by lio45

You can't rely on longitude. Parts of Ohio and West Virginia are "more Eastern" than the Atlantic beaches in Jacksonville; some NW Alberta cities that are east of the Rockies are "more Western" than direct Pacific oceanfront cities like Santa Monica and San Diego.

Good point. How about proximity to the Atlantic or Pacific coast? Atlanta is the farthest west Eastern city that is also relatively close to the Atlantic coast in a state that actually has coastline to the Atlantic.

Your point about San Diego: it is the most eastern west coast city. Reno, Nevada approx 120W is farther west than San Diego at 117W, yet is 213 miles as the crow flies to coastal Fort Bragg, CA.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

The map is sloppy.

There are bubbles within regions.

One example: there's just no way Las Vegas falls in the same region as Santa Fe or the Rio Grande region of Texas or Amarillo. If I were to guess the mapmaker is a midwestern/easterner with little to no understanding of other more distant regions.

The entire West has just 5 distinct regions, yet somehow Pittsburgh and Austin got their own distinct bubble? I think not.

the geographical distinctions/acknowledgements will come with population.

funny i was looking at an american atlas of my mothers circa 1965 and new zealand is entirely absent.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

The map is sloppy.

There are bubbles within regions.

One example: there's just no way Las Vegas falls in the same region as Santa Fe or the Rio Grande region of Texas or Amarillo. If I were to guess the mapmaker is a midwestern/easterner with little to no understanding of other more distant regions.

The entire West has just 5 distinct regions, yet somehow Pittsburgh and Austin got their own distinct bubble? I think not.

If you are going to determine regions then you cant be overly specific. Vegas and El Paso have more in common Historically, Geographical, Demographically and culturally than either have with say Seattle or Atlanta.

Thats how you come up with the regions, I would argue that Austin and San Antonio are fully southwest but thats just my opinion, it was map made on Reddit from lots of user input to get as close as they could to a good regional breakdown.

Many times people are far too broad lumping the entire country into like 4 or 5 regions or way to detailed. This is a pretty good middle.

If you want to get down into a higher resolution you can point out differences from city to city and even neighborhood to neighborhood but that would defeat the purpose and end the need for a regional classification.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Absolutely not, there are far more regions than 4 in the USA and sub regions to boot.

I personally find this pretty spot on when it comes to geographic/cultural divisions in our current day and age. Still not perfect but pretty close.



also, Dallas is not the west. Maybe people thought it was in like 1925 but its for sure a blend of Midwest/south.

a few quibbles with the map: part of Montana, WYO, western Nebraska, wester SD & ND are shown as "upper midwest". No way. "Great Plains", maybe. Midwest---no! Part of CA south of Pt. Conception (Santa Barbara County) are labeled "Northern CA. There should be a "central CA" area--maybe Ventura Co. up to Monterey.

[Centropolis]

yep, central coast (ca), basin and range, rockies (maybe divided north/south), maybe interior nw...

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

yep, central coast (ca), basin and range, rockies (maybe divided north/south), maybe interior nw...

How about Indian Country? No way Chinle should be lumped in with Mesa and that's not only within the same 'Southwest' region, but within the same state.

Tahoe/Reno has more in common with the gaming-hospitality lifestyle of Vegas than they do with Casper or Billings.

Florida has 5 regions. The entire west has 5 regions. This could go on and on and on.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Absolutely not, there are far more regions than 4 in the USA and sub regions to boot.

I personally find this pretty spot on when it comes to geographic/cultural divisions in our current day and age. Still not perfect but pretty close.



also, Dallas is not the west. Maybe people thought it was in like 1925 but its for sure a blend of Midwest/south.

The cutoff between Upstate NY and New England is not that pronounced. Sure, New England is a distinct region but culturally, there is a lot of overlap. Driving in from VT to NY or MA to NY, you'd never know you've crossed state lines apart from all the trash strewn everywhere on the NYS side. There are far more similarities between Troy or Plattsburgh NY and Burlington VT than Burlington VT has with Providence RI Portland ME or Boston.

[Crawford]

New England is not really that unified a region. Vermont is more like Upstate NY, and Connecticut is more like the NYC environs/Mid-Atlantic.

Mass, RI, NH and ME are a bit more unified and distinct, IMO, possibly excepting far western Mass, which is basically the same as adjacent parts of NY and CT.

If there's a transition zone, I would put it further west, somewhere Upstate. Albany could be in New England, while Buffalo could be in Ohio or Michigan.

[lio45]

Agree. As much as "New England" seems to be a no brainer and always a fixture in these maps, it should be called Northeast and include the eastern half of NY State.

NY State is a crossroads state (like Texas) that is definitely among the few states that are split between greater regions. "Great Lakes", "Appalachia", "Northeast a.k.a. Greater New England", and "Mid-Atlantic".

I'd abolish "Northeastern Highlands" in that map.

[lio45]

Alternatively, some maps do what I suggest and merge New England with its W/SW neighbors, elegantly calling the region "damn Yankees".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Mass, RI, NH and ME are a bit more unified and distinct, IMO, possibly excepting far western Mass, which is basically the same as adjacent parts of NY and CT.

Interesting you would say that as I can guarantee that the Upper Connecticut River valley (both sides of it) displays a near-total unification of NH and VT in all aspects of life. You probably couldn't tell which side you're on if it wasn't for road signs. Even the license plates aren't a reliable indicator, they're almost half VT and half NH on either side with a dash of MA.

From my point of view (frequent visitor to northern VT and northern NH) it's absolutely nuts to suggest NH would be grouped with RI yet not with VT.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying it's not easy to draw lines in a continuum.

[Jdawgboy]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Thats how you come up with the regions, I would argue that Austin and San Antonio are fully southwest but thats just my opinion, it was map made on Reddit from lots of user input to get as close as they could to a good regional breakdown.

As a native born and raised Austinite, I can tell you that Austin is most definitely not fully western/southwestern. Much of the eastern half of the city is southern. We are basically along the demarcation line. Half the city is on the Gulf coast plains, the other half in the Texas Hill Country. There's saying around here. "Austin is where the south ends and where the west begins". Another well known hallmark of the city is SXSW.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

As a native born and raised Austinite, I can tell you that Austin is most definitely not fully western/southwestern. Much of the eastern half of the city is southern. We are basically along the demarcation line. Half the city is on the Gulf coast plains, the other half in the Texas Hill Country. There's saying around here. "Austin is where the south ends and where the west begins". Another well known hallmark of the city is SXSW.

yeah, i mean hence "SXSW." definitely some southern strains mixed in there with the live oaks. it's an interesting geographical inflection point.

[Pedestrian]

I guess you are all too young to remember this:

The Nine Nations (of North America)


New England — an expanded version including not only Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Connecticut (although omitting the southwestern portion of Connecticut within the New York metropolitan area), but also the Canadian Atlantic provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador. Capital: Boston.
The Foundry — the by-then-declining industrial areas of the northeastern United States and Great Lakes region stretching from New York City to Milwaukee and down to the suburbs of Washington DC in Northern Virginia, and including Chicago, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Toledo, Philadelphia, and Southern Ontario centering on Toronto. Capital: Detroit.
Dixie — the former Confederate States of America (today the southeastern United States) centered on Atlanta, and including most of eastern Texas. While northern Virginia and Maryland are culturally not part of Dixie, he includes most of Virginia and West Virginia in "Dixie"[1] as well as Kentucky; southern and southeastern portions of Missouri, southern Illinois, and southern Indiana; and the "Little Dixie" region of southeastern Oklahoma. Finally, the region also includes most of Florida, as far south as the cities of Fort Myers and Naples. Capital: Atlanta.
The Breadbasket — most of the Great Plains states and part of the Prairie provinces: Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, the Dakotas, almost all of Oklahoma, parts of Missouri, western Wisconsin, eastern Colorado, the eastern edge of New Mexico, central Illinois, a portion of Indiana, and North Texas. Also included are some of Northern Ontario and southern Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Capital: Kansas City.
The Islands — The South Florida metropolitan area, the Everglades and Florida Keys, and the Caribbean. Capital: Miami.
Mexamerica — the southern and Central Valley portions of California as well as southern Arizona, the portion of Texas bordering on the Rio Grande, most of New Mexico, northern Mexico, and the Baja California Peninsula. Capital: Los Angeles.
Ecotopia — the Pacific Northwest coast west of the Cascade Range and the Coast Mountains, as well as several Alaskan Pacific Coast Ranges, stretching from Alaska down through coastal British Columbia, Washington state, Oregon, and into California just north of Santa Barbara. Capital: San Francisco.
The Empty Quarter — most of Alaska, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana and Colorado from Denver west, as well as the eastern portions of Oregon, California, Washington, all of Alberta and Northern Canada (including what is now Nunavut), northern Arizona, parts of New Mexico (mainly the area controlled by the Navajo Nation), and British Columbia east of the Coast Ranges. Capital: Denver.
Quebec — the primarily French-speaking province of Canada, which held referenda on secession in 1980 and 1995, the latter of which the separatists lost narrowly. Capital: Quebec City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ni..._North_America

[JManc]

Originally Posted by lio45

Agree. As much as "New England" seems to be a no brainer and always a fixture in these maps, it should be called Northeast and include the eastern half of NY State.

NY State is a crossroads state (like Texas) that is definitely among the few states that are split between greater regions. "Great Lakes", "Appalachia", "Northeast a.k.a. Greater New England", and "Mid-Atlantic".

I'd abolish "Northeastern Highlands" in that map.

As someone who was born and raised in NYS...yes, NYS is a lot like TX in that regard. Where I'm from, Utica, has more in common with parts of New England (not Boston or Providence though ) than it does NYC or Buffalo. When I lived in NH, the differences between there and Upstate were very small. They get more more pronounced once you get further south into Mass. especially as you get east near Worcester.

Interesting you would say that as I can guarantee that the Upper Connecticut River valley (both sides of it) displays a near-total unification of NH and VT in all aspects of life. You probably couldn't tell which side you're on if it wasn't for road signs. Even the license plates aren't a reliable indicator, they're almost half VT and half NH on either side with a dash of MA.

From my point of view (frequent visitor to northern VT and northern NH) it's absolutely nuts to suggest NH would be grouped with RI yet not with VT.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying it's not easy to draw lines in a continuum.

Outside MA, NH is closer to VT and ME and identifies itself very much as northern New England and RI is not even on the radar.

The Upper Valley in VT/NH is a great example of how these two states are interconnected...in fact kids who live in White River Jct (VT) and Lebanon (NH) areas all are apart of the same school district. My ex lived on the VT side and we'd go over to the NH side as if it was around the block.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I guess you are all too young to remember this:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ni..._North_America

This is from before I was born, but I've seen it a lot and agree with most of it. I think anointing Detroit as the capital of the Foundry is a bit dated, since Detroit's issues aren't as universal as they used to be. I would probably say that Chicago should be the capital since it has characteristics of Rust Belt and information economy. I think NYC has a Hong Kong-type relationship with the "nation."

I also think it's weird that Mexico is omitted, when it clearly is the heart of Mexamerica. And I'd probably say that today Mexamerica probably also includes SF, and that it's more of a transition point into Ecotopia. I think Seattle would be the capital of Ecotopia.

[ue]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

This is from before I was born, but I've seen it a lot and agree with most of it. I think anointing Detroit as the capital of the Foundry is a bit dated, since Detroit's issues aren't as universal as they used to be. I would probably say that Chicago should be the capital since it has characteristics of Rust Belt and information economy. I think NYC has a Hong Kong-type relationship with the "nation."

I also think it's weird that Mexico is omitted, when it clearly is the heart of Mexamerica. And I'd probably say that today Mexamerica probably also includes SF, and that it's more of a transition point into Ecotopia. I think Seattle would be the capital of Ecotopia.

I find it grossly simplified and out of whack in certain cases.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ue

I find it grossly simplified and out of whack in certain cases.

Such as?