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  #161  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mooky View Post
Wow, Bronco got the last guy (with the english? accent) at the very end to stipulate about risk and make the point its not JUST the industry taking risk that the public takes risk through investment in utilities for new development areas. Good going Bronco!
...totally disagree, it was a childish remark that Bronco made, the public purse is always taking risk, why is this any different...he tried to take a shot and it made him look dumb...
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  #162  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 8:44 PM
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There certainly is merit to some of the more sensible 'industry' people - including the issue of the target. The real problem is the people that are scaremongering.
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  #163  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 8:48 PM
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After hearing some of those opposed, I have to say I have a lot of sympathy for their arguments. One fellow from Ronmor (retail development) pointed to the difficultly of getting projects in the inner city approved. I would totally agree.

I really wish that the direction of Plan-It was more in line with "If you want to build something in the inner-city, you will get your plans approved in two weeks" kind of thing. What is really needed is to reduce regulatory constraints and delays to development in the existing communities.
...while regulatory streamlining would be a plus it isn't the ultimate answer to the equation, there still needs to be a buyer to make the whole thing work...
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  #164  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 8:50 PM
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...Wooster, you'll find amongst the 'industry' that the ambitions of PlanIt are embraced...we all have aspirations to make the world better...the push back is based on the prescriptiveness of the document, as Mr. Brown has recently shown...
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  #165  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 8:51 PM
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After hearing many questions and getting a bit more of an idea of what aldermen's personalities are like, I gotta say I really love Pincott. He really seems to get it. I think he really understands that (some) aspects of Plan-It will make developing in the inner city easier. If you have identified areas of intensification and have supporting policies around those areas, developing in those areas will be much easier. Pincott and Lowe are definitely my favorites.
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  #166  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 8:53 PM
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I agree, the process of getting better urban development approved must be drastically improved.

That includes 2 things:

making sure that policy and municipal departments allow good development to happen - ie not making innovate development like Garrison Woods take 7 years to approve because of outdated regulations.

and:

To do really good TOD planning, Corridor Planning and other intensification planning that can give communities a better idea of what this means so that some of the forces of NIMYism can be overcome and community buy in can happen. Most really disruptive NIMBYism comes when development and intensification is done ad hoc and there's no clear vision of what it is and how it can potentiall benefit the community. In the absense of that good detailed planning of intensification areas, it will be very difficult to achieve.
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  #167  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2009, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
...Wooster, you'll find amongst the 'industry' that the ambitions of PlanIt are embraced...we all have aspirations to make the world better...the push back is based on the prescriptiveness of the document, as Mr. Brown has recently shown...
I tend to sort of agree that the target numbers are not fully thought through in terms of what they actually translate to in terms of housing mix and how many dwelling units that would actually have to be built within the existing built up area to offset population decline.

In Toronto here, there's been huge growth in dwelling units downtown, but in essense the City of Toronto's overall population has remained stagnant because of population decline in the inner suburbs. Really to achieve 33% of the population growth in the existing built up area, probably over 50-60% of actual units built would have to be there.

I would really more like to see an emphasis on targeted density, and more importantly, design considerations for individual new communities.

For intensification efforts, the emphasis should better comprehensive planning (as I described above) and readjustments of certain unrealistic standards like parking #s that would make urban development more feasible and attractive and making approval easier.

Finally, the real focus should be on a realignment of investment which can put urban living and development on a more level playing field. To attract people to live on Centre Street, lots of investment needs to occur - transit, better streetscapes, parks, recreation centres, and other amenities. We can't expect people, en masse to make the choice to live in places like downtown and TODs unless they have those types of things.

If you focus too much on just targets, you may lose out on focusing on how actually to achieve this shift we're talking about. The how is much more important than the what.
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  #168  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 3:32 AM
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Little birds just told me MDP and CTP have passed first reading at City Council.

More to follow anonish.

UPPITY DATE: First reading passed unanimously. Council also passed an omnibus motion referring approximately 75 amendments to MDP and CTP back to Administration for reconsideration and second and third readings before year-end.
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Last edited by Beltliner; Jun 26, 2009 at 3:56 AM.
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  #169  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 4:33 AM
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Is there anyway to know what those amendments were?

A significant amount of debate surrounded the growth targets, which in my mind, although somewhat useful, are a tad bit of a distraction from how to actually achieve a truly liveable and sustainable city. I suspect those though will become a subject of amendment. If there are targets, it should probably focus more on the performance of individual developments or a mechanism to realign investment decisions toward intensification efforts.
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  #170  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 4:42 AM
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^^^ Aside from the Airport Trail Tunnel being back on the radar and the Sandy Beach and Edworthy Bridges going back into development hell, the earliest I can hazard any guess as to everything on the laundry list will be when they post the unofficial minutes sometime next week. I'll keep digging.
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  #171  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 1:15 PM
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I was watching last night as the last couple of opposed speakers said their peace, including that Oscar guy. He was well...just odd. Comparing the city to the communist revolution in Russia shooting the Czar and his family, and then rambling on and on about land the city took away from him and how he has been removed from meetings since.

Eventually his time was up and they cut off his mic, but he just kept talking until Bronco asked him twice to please step down.

Great to see the first reading pass, I'm sure we'll find out what the 75 or so amendments are in the next few days that are to go back to administration.
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  #172  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 2:20 PM
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Did they get through all the presentations last night or are there more scheduled for this morning?
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  #173  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 2:50 PM
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All finished as of last night.
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  #174  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 3:47 PM
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Calgary builders fight back at Plan It hearing

Blueprint for growth called 'not workable'

By Jason Markusoff, Calgary HeraldJune 25, 2009


McKenzie Towne features high-density housing. Calgary's building industry warns that the city's growth plan - focused on density and encouragement of multi-family housing - go further than the market will demand in 60 years.

CALGARY - Home-builders and suburban developers began laying out demands for changes to the city’s long-term blueprint for a more compact city, urging much softer density targets and a consultation approach so contentious that even a leading Plan It skeptic on council appeared to disagree.

The industry has coordinated a string of business leaders to speak at Day 3 of the public hearing into Plan It, to try dismantling city staff’s case for a future Calgary with more walkable, Garrison Woods-style communities and a weakening of the dominance of single-family homes in the outskirts.

Jay Westman, CEO of Jayman MasterBuilt, became the latest Plan It opponent to call it “social engineering,” saying Calgary businesses produce standalone houses because people overwhelmingly want them.

“It’s my customer that will lead the change, not a government-imposed policy,” he told council.

But the developers’ association may have ran aground in its bid for a task force to iron out details that excludes members of the public.

Michael Flynn, the group’s executive director, reasoned that since developers and home builders shoulder the financial risk for new suburbs, only their representatives should sit down with city staff to find out how Plan It should ultimatley work.

“The way I see it, the taxpayers had a financial risk whenever the city does,” retorted Ald. Ric McIver, who has shared the industry’s concerns that Plan It targets would interfere too much with market choice.

Westman said he hopes to shoot down the argument that suburban developers don’t pay their fair share of infrastructure costs to provide roads, power and other amenities to their communities.

Many aldermen and Plan It supporters have cited City Hall or city-commissioned reports that argue developer levies and charges only cover half the cost of growth, and the city would spend $11 billion less on infrastructure if the compact city Plan It envisions came to be.

Industry players and other critics of Plan It are expected to take all of the third day of the public hearing to plead their case.

The industry also said they’re building smarter suburbs already. Marcello Chiacchia of Genstar Development Co. touted his firm’s south-end Walden community, where 60 per cent of residences are multi-family units like condos or townhouses.

Chiacchia warned that Plan It asks developers to go even further, even if they worry there’s not enough customer demand for that.

In an interview, Chiacchia said more customers prefer suburban alternatives to the standalone house than they used to a decade ago, and that semi-detached homes are outselling detached ones in Walden because they’re more affordable.

“It’s a fluctuating trend,” he said.

Aldermen will likely not fully approve Plan It when they conclude the hearing Friday, but ask city staff to retool the document before a final vote this fall.

jmarkusoff@theherald.canwest.com
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
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  #175  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigtime View Post
I was watching last night as the last couple of opposed speakers said their peace, including that Oscar guy. He was well...just odd. Comparing the city to the communist revolution in Russia shooting the Czar and his family, and then rambling on and on about land the city took away from him and how he has been removed from meetings since.

Eventually his time was up and they cut off his mic, but he just kept talking until Bronco asked him twice to please step down.

Great to see the first reading pass, I'm sure we'll find out what the 75 or so amendments are in the next few days that are to go back to administration.
Oscar Fech is a bit of a wacko. Apparently he actually owns a lot of land in NE Calgary and is quite wealthy. He speaks at just about every public hearing - and the mayor often has to cut him off. He actually ran for mayor a couple of elections ago.
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  #176  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 6:47 PM
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^Ah yeah that guy. Gotta admire his persistence I guess.

Before the 18:00 break there were a few "ordinary" citizens (i.e. not in the development industry) speaking against Plan It. A couple seemed polar opposite to what I presume Bigtime was speaking about, as well as others. "Families will not want to raise kids in apartments or townhouses." "Plan It will take away the dream of a 'piece of paradise' with a lawn and a white picket fence," etc. One guy even said something like "who in their right mind would take public transit?" and seemed to suggest any and all transit expansion plans should be thrown out the window. Then there was one guy who I can only assume was Corndogger or his clone, asking for Plan It to be put to a plebiscite, coupled with the obligitory phrases like "social engineering."
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  #177  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2009, 6:52 PM
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I hope I at least allowed council to see that not every family has that dream of a giant yard and white picket fence (do those even exist anymore?), while at the same time saying that Plan-It would not take away a persons choice to have that if they so wished.

Calgary is my paradise, but like many people in my age range they also have a cabin or condo somewhere up in the mountains or on a big prairie lake. So that tends to minimize the urge to have a giant yard at home.
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  #178  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2009, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigtime View Post
I was watching last night as the last couple of opposed speakers said their peace, including that Oscar guy. He was well...just odd. Comparing the city to the communist revolution in Russia shooting the Czar and his family, and then rambling on and on about land the city took away from him and how he has been removed from meetings since.

Eventually his time was up and they cut off his mic, but he just kept talking until Bronco asked him twice to please step down...
It's nice to see the citizens of Calgary interested in the goings on down at City Hall but that guy Oscar is so strange. He attends public hearings almost all the time and has nothing really relevant to say. He is actually disruptive and I sure wish there was a way to just bar him from council chambers?
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  #179  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2009, 1:03 AM
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Oscar Fech seems to talk for the sake of talking. I rarely understand the point of what he says. Half the time he'll speak in favour of something and make it sound like he is objecting (or vice versa)

He also goes to most Calgary Planning Commission meetings. You'd think having so much exposure to the goings-on at City Hall, he'd have more relevant things to say. Ah well.
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  #180  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 2:44 PM
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Calgary softens growth plan in hopes of quieting critics

By Jason Markusoff and Kim Guttormson, Calgary Herald

CALGARY - City hall is aiming to pacify critics of its 60-year growth plan by erasing river crossings from the future Calgary map and softening language around car use and a less sprawling city.

Ahead of a crucial council hearing Monday, city officials modified Plan It Calgary in hopes of tamping down criticism from home builders and developers, as well as some aldermen who agreed the strategy called for radical change to the city's development.

But initial reaction suggests the conflict hasn't yet subsided, potentially leading to a tense council debate over Calgary's future.

The planning department is still drawing industry ire by rejecting calls to do away with Plan It's long-range targets, including one stating that half of future population growth should occur in already-developed areas, rather than mostly in new suburbs.

"No matter what kind of language there is, the numbers are still in the document," said Michael Flynn of the Urban Development Institute-Calgary after seeing the new version on Monday.

The industry has warned targets are market interference and will limit home builders' ability to provide as many single-family homes as buyers want.

Mayor Dave Bronconnier said Plan It has good principles but is flexible enough not to damage the free market.

"It's time to keep a healthy development industry, provide lots of consumer choice, but set the direction with more complete communities and more compact (communities)," he said.

As for the biggest problem residents raised at Plan It's marathon public hearing in June, city staff eliminated proposals for transit-only bridges over Bow River at Edworthy Park and the Elbow at Sandy Beach.

Plan It still states Calgary may need such crossings for buses, pedestrians, cyclists and emergency vehicles sometime in the future, but no longer suggests where they will go.


"We'd be pleased that the plan has taken out specific references to river crossing, within an urban park," said Fred Fenwick, president of the Edworthy Park Heritage Society, who has yet to seen the new document, which will be made public later this week.

The revised version also calls for a tunnel to access Calgary International Airport after the Barlow Trail access closes, but the inclusion doesn't force council to commit to the project and its estimated price tag of up to $500 million.

While most of the main development and density targets remain-- albeit with clear statements they'll be applied broadly, not to individual applications--city staff did grant one clear concession to suburban home builders.

Earlier versions mandated that new suburbs that aren't yet planned out must have 70 residents per hectare, much more densely packed than most new Calgary communities. The new version changed that to 70 residents or employees at local businesses.


"It's to give developers more flexibility-- more jobs, less people, or more people, less jobs," said David Watson, the city's general manager of planning.

The city chose not to erase the targets altogether because of failings of 1995's Go Plan--a blueprint that also tried to ease the trend of Calgary spreading across more surrounding green space. Watson said the city must set a clear direction, but also monitor targets and revise them when the city sees major change, such as the recent economic boom.

According to a city-commissioned study, Calgary could spend $11.2 billion less on roads, fire stations and other infrastructure in the next six decades if it builds the compact city that Plan It envisions, rather than sprawling outward as it has for decades.

Ald. Ric McIver, a key critic of Plan It, said he's still concerned with the proposed pace of change.

"I think we're only fighting about whether it's evolution or revolution, and I'm an evolution believer," McIver said. "I know you can get there faster, but the faster you get there, the more people you hurt along the way."

He cautioned that with stated targets, there's the risk of city planners trying to bring 60 years' change in only five.

Aldermen proposed more than 70 amendments to Plan It, ranging from tweaks to major overhauls.

Ald. John Mar is sure council will want an explanation on which amendments made it into the document and which didn't--and why.

"If not, why not? They should be included so council as a whole can debate the merits on a case-by-case basis," he said, adding he knows some of his requests--including a detailed map of growth in the inner city and how it will affect traffic--weren't done.

The city has spent $6.3 million on consultations, promotion and the creation of Plan It.

kguttormson@thEhErald. canwEst.com

© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald


http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...008/story.html
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