High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Program (USA)

[electricron]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

This is welcome news but, ewwww, plan accordingly....

Next Repair at Penn Station: Fixing Those ‘Disgusting’ Bathrooms

“Mr. Moorman said that Amtrak had hired a contractor and was drawing up a plan for the work, which is complicated by the paucity of alternatives. He said the railroad would have to bring in temporary toilets, similar to the ones used at sporting events and festivals, commonly known as port-a-potties, which also quickly become quite rancid. Among the questions Amtrak executives were still pondering, he said, was whether to start on the men’s room or the ladies’ room first.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/n...m-repairs.html

Port-a-potties?
Here's a much better idea, open up Farley and it's brand new restrooms before remodeling the restrooms under Madison Square Garden.

[Muji]

Solid progress in the Northwest. Starting in December, most Cascades trains will make the SEA-PDX trip in 3 hours and 20 minutes, down from the currently scheduled 3:40.

Source: https://www.theurbanist.org/2017/08/...nd-trips-fall/

Amtrak Cascades Getting More Seattle-Portland Trips In Fall
Stephen Fesler
August 14, 2017

This fall, service on Amtrak Cascades will improve service with increased frequency on trips between Seattle and Portland and the opening of a shorter, more direct route in Pierce County. Amtrak Cascades is adding two new daily services and adjusting schedules to spread out service throughout the day, which affect trips across the network–not just for Seattle-Portland trips. A new corridor dubbed the Point Defiance Bypass will shave off nearly a dozen minutes from trips south of Tacoma, allowing trains to be more competitive over express bus service like Bolt Bus during certain times. A portion of the corridor is already open providing weekday commuter rail service from Lakewood to Seattle on the South Sounder line.


Image credit: WSDOT

[aquablue]

The priority should have been NEC first for true HSR. That was the location where rail travel made the most sense and not California or Texas. Good job USA. Great foresight there. Now it appears there will never be true HSR on the NEC, just some half arsed solution to the problem with incremental upgrades to speed on existing Victorian era track. Way to go.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by aquablue

The priority should have been NEC first for true HSR. That was the location where rail travel made the most sense and not California or Texas. Good job USA. Great foresight there. Now it appears there will never be true HSR on the NEC, just some half arsed solution to the problem with incremental upgrades to speed on existing Victorian era track. Way to go.

Yeah, the Unit States makes it basically impossible to get anything big built. The Republicans refuse to spend any money and the Democrats refuse to build anything without 10 years of environmental studies and if a single fishy is killed then no go.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by Muji

Solid progress in the Northwest. Starting in December, most Cascades trains will make the SEA-PDX trip in 3 hours and 20 minutes, down from the currently scheduled 3:40.

That's great. I always thought that the route along the edge of Tacoma seemed indirect.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Yeah, the Unit States makes it basically impossible to get anything big built. The Republicans refuse to spend any money and the Democrats refuse to build anything without 10 years of environmental studies and if a single fishy is killed then no go.

Nah, they just don't like trains very much. They like cars and planes. Those BIG projects get done all the time. They still don't really take intercity passenger trains seriously in this country, they are mere afterthoughts for stupid reasons I won't get into here.

[Eightball]

Originally Posted by aquablue

The priority should have been NEC first for true HSR. That was the location where rail travel made the most sense and not California or Texas. Good job USA. Great foresight there. Now it appears there will never be true HSR on the NEC, just some half arsed solution to the problem with incremental upgrades to speed on existing Victorian era track. Way to go.

Why? CAHSR will link almost 30 million people (and is currently under construction). Texas HSR is vaporware until some money is put behind it but it will link 2 of the nation's biggest cities via flat terrain which will be easy to build and is an obvious choice. Besides, it ain't perfect, but the NEC already has HSR and a high mode share

Originally Posted by Muji

Solid progress in the Northwest. Starting in December, most Cascades trains will make the SEA-PDX trip in 3 hours and 20 minutes, down from the currently scheduled 3:40.

Source: https://www.theurbanist.org/2017/08/...nd-trips-fall/

great news

[pizzaguy]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Yeah, the Unit States makes it basically impossible to get anything big built. The Republicans refuse to spend any money and the Democrats refuse to build anything without 10 years of environmental studies and if a single fishy is killed then no go.

weak false equivlence

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Nah, they just don't like trains very much. They like cars and planes. Those BIG projects get done all the time. They still don't really take intercity passenger trains seriously in this country, they are mere afterthoughts for stupid reasons I won't get into here.

Big car projects have nearly as many troubles. I can't even count how many get delayed or canceled due to absurd NIMBY intervention.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Nah, they just don't like trains very much. They like cars and planes. Those BIG projects get done all the time. They still don't really take intercity passenger trains seriously in this country, they are mere afterthoughts for stupid reasons I won't get into here.

What do you expect? In the USA the two largest metro areas (LA and NYC) are ? miles (? kilometers) apart.
The air travel (bird fly) shortest distance between New York and Los Angeles is 2,451 miles (3,944 km).
If you travel by jet plane (which has average speed of 560 mph) from New York to Los Angeles, it takes 4 hours and 23 minutes to arrive.
If you travel by automobile, Google Maps suggests 2777 miles (I-40, I-44, and I-80 route) and 41 hours (averaging 67.73 mph). You will have to stop for the night at least three times, assuming you'll be exhausted after 12 hours of driving and sleeping for at least 6 hours. That'll add another 18 hours to your drive time, so 41 hours will now be 59 hours. With the 18 hours of sleep, the average speed drops to 47 mph.
If you travel by the existing Amtrak trains, you'll leave NYC at 3:40 pm on day 1 and arrive in Los Angeles at 2:20 am on day 4. (85 hours and 40 minutes later). The rail distance would be 3224 miles, and your average speed would be 37.63 mph.

For comparison purposes for England, the two largest metros (Greater London and West Midlands (Birmingham) are ? miles (? kilometers) apart.
The air travel (bird fly) shortest distance between London and Birmingham is 163 km= 101 miles. The flight time will be around 42 minutes.
If you travel by automobile, it's 117.4 miles via M1 and M6, taking 2 hours and 23 minutes. Your average speed would be 49.32 mph.
If you travel by the fastest train, using the West Coast Main, it's 112 miles (180 kilometers) taking 1 hour and 23 minutes. Your average speed would be 81 mph.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that riding the trains is very competitive at distances around 100 miles. But it isn't at distances between 2400 and 3200 miles. If the trains could average the same 81 mph like they do in England, it would take 39 hours and 48 minutes. Even at HSR train speeds averaging 150 mph, it'll take 21 hours and 30 minutes to travel the 3224 rail miles. I don't think that travel time would ever be competitive with jet planes. Most passengers would still prefer to fly in the USA because the distances are so huge.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by Eightball

Why? CAHSR will link almost 30 million people (and is currently under construction). Texas HSR is vaporware until some money is put behind it but it will link 2 of the nation's biggest cities via flat terrain which will be easy to build and is an obvious choice. Besides, it ain't perfect, but the NEC already has HSR and a high mode share


great news

It seems very sad. The N. East is the place where True HSR (not acela slow poke) rail makes the most sense in the country, yet they can't seem to get it done. That wouldn't happen in Japan, Europe, etc. They would focus on this area no matter the problems or costs. Again, sad.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by electricron

What do you expect? In the USA the two largest metro areas (LA and NYC) are ? miles (? kilometers) apart.
The air travel (bird fly) shortest distance between New York and Los Angeles is 2,451 miles (3,944 km).
If you travel by jet plane (which has average speed of 560 mph) from New York to Los Angeles, it takes 4 hours and 23 minutes to arrive.
If you travel by automobile, Google Maps suggests 2777 miles (I-40, I-44, and I-80 route) and 41 hours (averaging 67.73 mph). You will have to stop for the night at least three times, assuming you'll be exhausted after 12 hours of driving and sleeping for at least 6 hours. That'll add another 18 hours to your drive time, so 41 hours will now be 59 hours. With the 18 hours of sleep, the average speed drops to 47 mph.
If you travel by the existing Amtrak trains, you'll leave NYC at 3:40 pm on day 1 and arrive in Los Angeles at 2:20 am on day 4. (85 hours and 40 minutes later). The rail distance would be 3224 miles, and your average speed would be 37.63 mph.

For comparison purposes for England, the two largest metros (Greater London and West Midlands (Birmingham) are ? miles (? kilometers) apart.
The air travel (bird fly) shortest distance between London and Birmingham is 163 km= 101 miles. The flight time will be around 42 minutes.
If you travel by automobile, it's 117.4 miles via M1 and M6, taking 2 hours and 23 minutes. Your average speed would be 49.32 mph.
If you travel by the fastest train, using the West Coast Main, it's 112 miles (180 kilometers) taking 1 hour and 23 minutes. Your average speed would be 81 mph.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that riding the trains is very competitive at distances around 100 miles. But it isn't at distances between 2400 and 3200 miles. If the trains could average the same 81 mph like they do in England, it would take 39 hours and 48 minutes. Even at HSR train speeds averaging 150 mph, it'll take 21 hours and 30 minutes to travel the 3224 rail miles. I don't think that travel time would ever be competitive with jet planes. Most passengers would still prefer to fly in the USA because the distances are so huge.

There is the NEC, a dense region. Think of how similar to places in Europe it is. Multiple cities in a line. If they had taken trains seriously, they would have invested there earlier before sprawl ruined the chance. Like the Germans, the French, The Japanese. Rail is an afterthought. Too many people in this country are anti-rail for stupid reasons i won't get into here...

[electricron]

Originally Posted by aquablue

There is the NEC, a dense region. Think of how similar to places in Europe it is. Multiple cities in a line. If they had taken trains seriously, they would have invested there earlier before sprawl ruined the chance. Like the Germans, the French, The Japanese. Rail is an afterthought. Too many people in this country are anti-rail for stupid reasons i won't get into here...

Didn't the PRR invest into the NEC around 100 years ago, before sprawl ruined it? 100 years from now, do you really expect Japan and Europe to reinvest and build even faster rail corridors when the corridors they have now still perform as designed?

[mrsmartman]

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[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by pizzaguy

weak false equivlence

How so? The American process is incredibly burdensome and costly. Building infrastructure in this country is incredibly costly, and this is mainly due to democrat ideas, mainly Labor and the Environment.

No, I dont think we should destroy the environment and flip off middle class Americans, but cost is HUGE in determining projects. If you don't believe that, ..............I can't help you.

[Busy Bee]

I'm not sure you know about what you are talking about as much as you think you do.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by electricron

Didn't the PRR invest into the NEC around 100 years ago, before sprawl ruined it? 100 years from now, do you really expect Japan and Europe to reinvest and build even faster rail corridors when the corridors they have now still perform as designed?

The track from 100 years ago is not even comparable to real HSR, don't even bother with that ridiculous argument. The situations are entirely different.

Bottom line, if the USA gave a crap about rail and didn't have stupid biases against it, the NEC would have TGV style lines today despite problems, costs, etc. It's the perfect place for it in N. America. I'm done debating this with you. You are just here to intentionally nitpick, spewing useless math exercises around and bringing up ridiculous strawman arguments. Be in denial if you want, I'm out.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by aquablue

The track from 100 years ago is not even comparable to real HSR, don't even bother with that ridiculous argument. The situations are entirely different.

Bottom line, if the USA gave a crap about rail and didn't have stupid biases against it, the NEC would have TGV style lines today despite problems, costs, etc. It's the perfect place for it in N. America. I'm done debating this with you. You are just here to intentionally nitpick, spewing useless math exercises around and bringing up ridiculous strawman arguments. Be in denial if you want, I'm out.

Data are facts, not my opinions. I often report where I found that data.
If you don't like the data I present, find others you like better and post them. Continue the argument in a grown up, civilized way, don't shut the argument down with "my way or the highway!"

Here's some more data you will probably ignore completely. Never-the-less, data you should read. Amtrak's latest estimation to enhance the NEC is $150.5 Billion.
https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/453/325...t-Corridor.pdf
Master Plan South - New York to Washington and Harrisburg Branch = $14.9
Master Plan North - New York to Boston and New Haven-Springfield Branch = $3.9
Gateway Program - Newark to New York = $14.7
NextGen HSR Phase 1 - New York to Washington = $51.4
NextGen HSR Phase 2 - New York to Boston = $58.0
High-Speed Rolling Stock = $5.2
High-Speed Rolling Stock Servicing Facilities = $2.4
Total = $150.5 Billion

Note, this is Amtrak plan which does not build an entirely new HSR corridor all the way from D.C. to Boston. Who knows how much that would cost?

Here's Trumps's proposed budget for the USDOT.
Per https://www.transportation.gov/sites...hts-book_0.pdf
Bullet points of interest:
The FY 2018 President’s Budget request is $75 Billion.
In total this is about the same funding level as FY 2016.
The Department’s discretionary programs are funded at $16.3 billion.
The mandatory programs are funded at $59.6 billion.
The President’s Budget includes $200 billion to support his Infra­structure proposal. This funding is not included with the Department of Transportation funding recommendations but is included in the President’s overall request.

Of course, any President's proposed budget faces a quick death in the US Congress, but it's a start to see where the money goes..
Federal Aviation Administration $16,125.9 Million
Federal Highway Administration $45,009.6 Million
Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration $657.8 Million
National Highway Traffc Safety Administration $899.1 Million
Federal Transit Administration $1,225.9 Million
Federal Railroad Administration $1,049.0 Million
Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration $259.1 Million
Maritime Administration $393.8 Million
Saint Lawrence Seaway Development Corporation $28.3 Million
Offce of the Secretary $278.0 Million
Offce of Inspector General $87.3 Million
Offsetting Receipts [739.8 Million]
Total DOT Budget Authority $75,274.2 Million

Where does the FRA funds go?
Safety & Ops $199.0 Million
Research and Development $39.1 Million
Amtrak $760.0 Million
Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements $25.0 Million
Federal-State Partnership for State of Good Repair $25.9 Million
Restoration and Enhancement Grants 0.0
Rail Safety Grants 0.0
Northeast Corridor Improvement Program 0.0
Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing Program 0.0
Rescissions Of Prior Year Balances 0.0
Total $1,049.0 Million
Amtrak receives around 75% of all funds going to the FRA.

It'll take a very long time for it to fund $150 Billion just for the NEC enhancements. I'm not even sure the FRA is equipped with enough personnel to manage a large inflow of funds for NEC enhancements? Amtrak planninggoes out to 2035, about 20 years to implement. They would need like $7.5 Billion per year over 20 years to spend $150 Billion on the NEC. That's 7 times the present FRA budget.

[Muji]

As of today, Amtrak service returns to Roanoke, VA as an extension of the higher-speed Northeast Regional route that formerly ended in Lynchburg.

Link: http://www.roanoke.com/business/news...c46bafcb1.html

Amtrak returns to Roanoke
The Roanoke Times
Jeff Sturgeon
October 30, 2017

Amtrak brought back passenger rail Monday.

A blue passenger train reached downtown Roanoke at 12:05 p.m., drawing applause from people in the street. What fueled the excitement was a decision by Amtrak to revamp its timetable: Its daily train through central and northern Virginia is scheduled to start in Roanoke Tuesday and for the indefinite future.

The $105 million project, which is based on a 30-year agreement with Norfolk Southern Corp., resumes passenger service after a 38-year hiatus. The closest that Amtrak's Northeast Regional service has come to Roanoke has been Lynchburg, 53 railroad miles to the east.

[...]

Looking father into the future, Virginia has set aside $350,000 to study the tracks between Roanoke and Christiansburg once the new Roanoke service has been running for two years, Mitchell said.

[Busy Bee]

^Good deal