Urban Design in Edmonton

[feepa]

I dont think it is

"escape the reality of what Edmonton generally is"

tell me how I should comprehend that differently?

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by feepa

I dont think it is

"escape the reality of what Edmonton generally is"

tell me how I should comprehend that differently?

It means that a large portion is not unique and is interchangeable with anywhere north america. It doesn't mean I hate it, I live in one of those rather interchangeable areas, albeit a bit older than the one you live in, which I really like but the reason I am on skyscraperpage is because the unique parts of Edmonton, with the majority of attractions (not west edmonton mall which is again pretty interchangeable) are the more urban portions.
I appreciate what Ian/his type do because I don't take it as a criticism of my lifestyle, i just see it as an idealist living his pie-eyed ideals that help push the urban part of the city forward which I can then ride the coat tails of when I decide to leave my unnecessarily large house/yard (practically speaking).

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

This is such a ridiculous waste of time for both/the three of you, every single time. Why do you keep debating each other?

The only i can think to say is that if there was every a place to express pie-eyed unrealistic idealism about making Edmonton something it isn't today and likely will never be on a large scale, it might be a place called "skyscraperpage.com"...so I shrug it off as just that. It's really why I joined this site way too many years ago, to escape the reality of what Edmonton generally is and find a hive mind of more urban focused discussion. It's likely why we all joined, but now that doesn't fit with people's lifestyle choices and somehow the purpose of the site should change to suit and reflect that?
Wrong forum for the reality of Edmonton...C2E really should be the place for it, but the same useless fighting happens there. I'm guilty as anyone of getting into it, but at this point I consider deleting my accounts from both sites every single day. I guess it might be time to do it.

well, if that isn't an interesting conflux of confusing and mistaken trains of thought... firstly, if you want to focus on skyscrapers, paris really wouldn't be your city to lust after (other than perhaps le corbusier's arch in la defense).

secondly, shopping habits and the café lifestyle are a product of more things than simple choice.

how you manage to make that into a food fight between forums and why you would want to escapes me.

housing in paris is small except for the very rich. if you do manage to live in paris (or london or singapore or tokyo), you probably don't have space to entertain. if you want to meet someone, you have to do that somewhere other than where you live. and not only is the space you have very expensive, electricity is very expensive and in most cases natural gas is unavailable. that means 6 cubic foot fridges and hot plates instead of full size refrigerators and kitchen ranges. and that means you shop every day, not every week not because you really want to but because you don't have any choice. on top of that, prepared foods and charcuterie and cheeses are popular so you don't have to pay to refrigerate or cook food which means there isn't the same relative cost premium you would pay here to eat out so you can support that café life style without the added financial cost.

so we don't have the same street café life style as paris? why should that be surprising and why should it be a matter of right or wrong? you might as well complain that our clothes aren't as fashionable as those you see on the streets in paris or barcelona or buenos aries and we should ditch our parkas and sorels...

[noodlenoodle]

Thanks for the post Kevin.

It's not one or the other folks. It's ok to like the status quo, but also, it's ok to like other things too and adopt things from other places to implement here.

I totally agree with this sentiment. It's the denigrating those who like or enjoy the status quo as regressive or somehow lesser that I typically most object to when these discussions bubble up now & again.

I've been called an agent provocateur & fallen out of favour with "the insiders" ever since I realized that my own opinions aren't universal & started speaking up & sharing ideas that aren't necessarily reflective of my own opinions while still being valid, rather of those that aren't part of this self-selecting insular little forum community.

I've lived centrally for over 15 years now & was car-free for 13 of them. I own multiple properties in Oliver & will be building an infill home in an established neighbourhood. I'm more "progressive" than the vast majority of Edmontonians. I travel internationally, I shop locally, I walk whenever it's the best choice & drive only when I need to. But because I don't make patios a cornerstone of my social life, don't believe that trickle-down economics somehow work when a sports team is involved, understand that individuals & families have perfectly valid & acceptable reasons to live their lives in the suburbs, don't believe it's the city's responsibility to cater to all my whims/desires/wants & enjoy the freedom along with increased quality of life that a car brings to the table in Edmonton I'm now a pariah & branded a troll by people who disagree with me.

Ah well, I've been called worse by people I actually respect. A little forum jockeying from a random & inconsequential internet poster isn't gonna affect me much.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by kcantor

well, if that isn't an interesting conflux of confusing and mistaken trains of thought... firstly, if you want to focus on skyscrapers, paris really wouldn't be your city to lust after (other than perhaps le corbusier's arch in la defense).

secondly, shopping habits and the café lifestyle are a product of more things than simple choice.

how you manage to make that into a food fight between forums and why you would want to escapes me.

housing in paris is small except for the very rich. if you do manage to live in paris (or london or singapore or tokyo), you probably don't have space to entertain. if you want to meet someone, you have to do that somewhere other than where you live. and not only is the space you have very expensive, electricity is very expensive and in most cases natural gas is unavailable. that means 6 cubic foot fridges and hot plates instead of full size refrigerators and kitchen ranges. and that means you shop every day, not every week not because you really want to but because you don't have any choice. on top of that, prepared foods and charcuterie and cheeses are popular so you don't have to pay to refrigerate or cook food which means there isn't the same relative cost premium you would pay here to eat out so you can support that café life style without the added financial cost.

so we don't have the same street café life style as paris? why should that be surprising and why should it be a matter of right or wrong? you might as well complain that our clothes aren't as fashionable as those you see on the streets in paris or barcelona or buenos aries and we should ditch our parkas and sorels...

I never mentioned Paris...I'm not drawing any parallels to it. You smashing together what I said with what Ian is saying. They are not at all the same thing. You are also assuming I think anything Ian says is spot on, especially this thing about patios, again, never mentioned it.
How you push those two arguments together is beyond me...

[noodlenoodle]

Originally Posted by kcantor

well, if that isn't an interesting conflux of confusing and mistaken trains of thought...

Ken, your posts remain one of the highlights of participating in online forums in Edmonton & I'll keep coming around to read them as long as you continue to be the elder statesman of the development community & a consummate professional.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

I never mentioned Paris...I'm not drawing any parallels to it. You smashing together what I said with what Ian is saying. They are not at all the same thing. You are also assuming I think anything Ian says is spot on, especially this thing about patios, again, never mentioned it.
How you push those two arguments together is beyond me...

you are correct - you didn't specifically mention paris. but it was IanO's postings from paris - and his bemoaning why edmonton isn't "more paris" without acknowledging why paris is what it is as well as why edmonton is what edmonton is - that was the current "topic of the day" in the thread.

i treated your post as a continuation of that overall conversation, not in isolation in no small part because you mentioned the three other participants in the conversation at the start of your post, not because i attributed all of the confux entirely to you.

much of my post was directed to the shallowness of too much of the overall conversation, not to you specifically, and i assumed that would have been apparent. it apparently was not and for that i apologise to you but i will stand by what i actually posted.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by kcantor

you are correct - you didn't specifically mention paris. but it was IanO's postings from paris - and his bemoaning why edmonton isn't "more paris" without acknowledging why paris is what it is as well as why edmonton is what edmonton is - that was the current "topic of the day" in the thread.

i treated your post as a continuation of that overall conversation, not in isolation in no small part because you mentioned the three other participants in the conversation at the start of your post, not because i attributed all of the confux entirely to you.

much of my post was directed to the shallowness of too much of the overall conversation, not to you specifically, and i assumed that would have been apparent. it apparently was not and for that i apologise to you but i will stand by what i actually posted.

I appreciate the apology, I certainly have lots to apologize over time with how I have behaved and what I have written, but I stand by what I said as well. This site was never made as a "generic everything city site". It was created around Skyscrapers at first and their immediate surroundings which typically are the most urban of areas.
Now to bemoan and demand that the focus of the site should shift because people's personal views have...wrong site, wrong forum.
Ignoring that, this place for a small group is almost entirely about personal beef and one up-man-ship.
No offense to you Ken, but you have been pulled into that as well, it's pretty clear you feel a need to "lecture" Ian singly and publicly about his behavior and despite Noodlenoodle congratulating you on it, it would be much better done in private or in person in my opinion.

[Coldrsx]

Temper it with the fact I am in the antithesis of Edmonton, but the generality and responses remind me we get what we 'want'.

It is what it is, I guess, bravo.

Or, maybe, I could, we could 'we' would do more... or not?

What kind of place do you want to live, can you walk to much or most of it, do you want cheap/easy/quick? ok.

thanks

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Temper it with the fact I am in the antithesis of Edmonton, but the generality and responses remind me we get what we 'want'.

It is what it is, I guess, bravo.

Or, maybe, I could, we could 'we' would do more... or not?

What kind of place do you want to live, can you walk to much or most of it, do you want cheap/easy/quick? ok.

thanks

and maybe we should temper that with the fact it's one in the morning in paris...

[Coldrsx]

Usually I would agree Ken, but it is what it is. Prima nada.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Temper it with the fact I am in the antithesis of Edmonton, but the generality and responses remind me we get what we 'want'.

We get what we need, I usually find. And if we don't, we move on. And on that note, freezing rain and snowfall warnings are flashing up. Perfect weather for meeting friends on that cafe patio, I says. Or you could take stock of where your shovel and pick is and see if you have enough salt to keep the sidewalks free of ice. And after that, we can have a kitchen party with our friends or family.

[noodlenoodle]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Temper it with the fact I am in the antithesis of Edmonton, but the generality and responses remind me we get what we 'want'.

It is what it is, I guess, bravo.

Or, maybe, I could, we could 'we' would do more... or not?

What kind of place do you want to live, can you walk to much or most of it, do you want cheap/easy/quick? ok.

thanks

The vast majority of people want it cheap/easy/quick. There's no time to walk to the patisserie & fishmonger every second day when you have to get one kid to soccer practice, the other to dance class, get to yoga plus cook dinner, pick up the dry cleaning, walk the dog, change the oil & do 3 loads of laundry so the family can go to work/school tomorrow in something clean. People have lives to live, stuff to do & like to have lots of private space to do it in, hence our spread out city.

You're a childless male in your mid-late 30s who likely uses his kitchen less than 90% of your fellow Edmontonians. You lead what appears to be a relatively uncomplicated life (the social calendar that resembles someone ten years your junior notwithstanding). You're fortunate enough to work a job close enough to home that you can walk while simultaneously facilitating many international vacations per year. You're hardly the Edmonton Everyman & as I've alluded to earlier today, all of this shapes your opinions, wants & desires into something dramatically different from the average folks. I'm not gonna make any kind of qualitative judgement here about your personal preferences, I'm just pointing out the differences between you & most folks in order to make a point (heck, except for your proclivity for pints & patios, we're honestly not that different, demographically-speaking).

Edmonton is amazing at providing the suburban experience many people seem to really enjoy. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head and making them move to the far side of the Henday. Unfortunately, there's a finite limit to how far the traditional suburban model can expand before it collapses under its own weight & while there is a definite need for change in how this city moves/grows/lives/works/plays over the next 20 years, lifting urbanist ideas from cities orders of magnitudes denser, hundreds of years older & culturally distinct from Edmonton doesn't really seem like the best option. We need a solution that works for Edmonton & as much as I hate to say it because it hinges on one of our weakest traits civically, I think it needs to be a home-grown one. There's a lot of amazing stuff in Edmonton, and a lot of that is due to the efforts of the people who've got stuff to do & wanna do it differently than you do, with all the diametrically opposing beliefs & choices that entails.

Like Matt said in his response to Dan, you profess to love Edmonton, but look down on, openly show contempt & disdain for your fellow Edmontonians, who make this city the great place it is. I don't get that.

And that's what I've got to say about that. Done with this topic for the foreseeable future.

[Kevin_foster]

I'm not taking sides, but I really don't understand the animosity towards IanO. Who cares if he's childless and lives in a condo downtown? I did not know it was a requirement to have kids and buy a big house in the burbs once you turned 30.... nor should you be expected to live a urban car-less lifestyle if you don't choose to. Can we just all not agree that everyone comes from all walks of life and has a right to speak about how their life and people like them could be improved? Unless they're being outright belligerent or disrespectful; just let it happen. We're all grown ups. I think.

That said, I'd like to lead the talk about having two threads. Either:
1) (a)Downtown Construction and (b) Edmonton Construction; or
2) (a) Edmonton Construction and (a) Urban Discussion (or something of that matter).

This thread get's too derailed with banter that is not even construction related.

[itom 987]

^^ You are right Noodle, many people like the suburban lifestyle, but the situation with the environment keeps getting worse. Eventually there will be a call for some serious lifestyle changes to be made - just to keep the environment sustainable. One solution is to reduce the human footprint, urbanize cities and return the country back to its natural state. Another solution would be to reduce the human population, yet another solution would be to colonize Mars. Looking around for solutions that have been successful in other areas is just as important as finding a home grown solution.

Given the problem with the environment, are there any home grown solutions that will work for Edmonton? The way Edmonton manages it's waste is the only home grown solution I am aware of.

[Xelebes]

Placeholder before I do some cleaning up.

If you must start, this thread is not for discussing construction projects but for editorialising on what can be done with urban design in Edmonton.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

I don't really care for Cold's preachiness on how urban residents should live their lives, but I also don't care for the negative nancies and the "can't do" mentality of some of you.

One of the reasons I joined C2E and SSP is to share ideas on how to make Edmonton better. If one of those ideas is to have more patios open all year around, then great. If it catches on then keep at it; if not then let it die.

Some perspective - Edmonton's patio culture is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago, and maybe some folks like Cold should probably get some credit for that, for making it an issue with the politicians. Now they stay open longer, much of the red tape around having them are burnt away, and places on Whyte and Jasper have embraced the boardwalk patios. But there's some room for improvement.

[mcc16]

Agree with Kevin, and furthermore, I'd like to once again ask the mods if non construction related posts should be removed. This is just ridiculous. I think noodle underestimates the amount of colds in our city, and cold underestimates the number of noodles happy being noodles. The lack of respect is disgusting, and it's hard to believe that the same language and aggression would be used if not on an Internet forum.

And to respectfully disagree with one of noodles points (and to desperately try to steer us back to discussion of construction and city building)how can you not look to other older cities when building a new city. By bringing back ideas from other cities you can see what has worked and what hasn't. Yes it has to be fit into the existing Edmonton, but how the hell is anywhere in Canada anything but a Frankenstein's monster of other denser, older, distinct cultures?

And you make good points, but it is impossible to take you seriously, when each post is laced with childish personal jabs at another poster. Yes Cold seems a little elitist, pretentious ( not an insult). But it's snobs like him that'll help develop another layer to our downtown. I have no interest in a jw marriot (other than the building itself) or a cheese shop, or a potential opera house, or corso ##, or a craft brewery, or cigarettes on a patio, or art instelations, or countless other things going on in our downtown. However, I appreciate that we are building a city with something for everyone.

[ue]

I think there's a middle ground to be had here. I don't really appreciate Cold's condescending snobbery myself, but I also don't really believe in the status quo either. I get that many Edmontonians (most, I guess) prefer the suburban lifestyle and that's fine, I think. But there are better ways for us to be planning our suburbia so that it is accessible to people who want that backyard but lead otherwise different lifestyles and want different options. And if you're unconcerned with that, they could also be built more sustainably. The Cornell neighbourhood in Markham or the East Clayton neighbourhood in Surrey or perhaps Garrison Woods in Calgary are suburban developments that are more what we could strive towards. It's still auto-centric and fairly spacious, but walkable and at least striving to be diverse. Terwillegar Towne, Windermere, and Griesbach are steps in the right direction.

I also think that we can be a city that supports "patio culture" as well as the New World suburban lifestyle that has gone on unabated for decades. There is clearly a significant segment of Edmonton that lives (and even more who want to live) a more urban lifestyle like Cold and they should be able to push their parts of the city forward with transit, density, organic markets, bicycle shops, and winter patios, or at least give them a shot. We probably could extend our regular patio season a bit, although as mentioned already, it has vastly improved, and we could continue endeavouring towards more heated winter patios. Preferably we would start in a concentrated area, like RHW or Whyte or 104th St, instead of trying to make it happen everywhere.

In short, the urbanistas should accept that Edmonton is a suburban city of the automobile age and while we should be trying to curb the unsustainable and limited aspects of that lifestyle, we shouldn't denigrate those who opt for it. On the other hand, the suburbanites should accept that Edmonton is a growing, diverse city and there is a more urban-orientated segment of the population who aren't cool with the status quo and want to progress Edmonton forward with new, innovative ideas and they shouldn't be attacked for that.

[Coldrsx]

I find it odd that my perceived condescension is in fact simple ways to enjoy an urban lifestyle. The idea that we 'don't have time' or 'can't because Edmonton' or 'too cold' (double entendre) is hilarious. The basics of walking to where you want to go, if not use transit, supporting local shops versus going to the mall or power centre, enjoying a post-work pint with coworkers, friends or family instead of rushing home to make sure your kids aren't fine when they certainly are, or perhaps invite and involve them. This isn't just a Paris thing, but I absolutely love how in many other cities you see kids walking, skating, scootering, being carried by parents on the bus, going to the market, going to the park...