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  #81  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:05 PM
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I just can’t fathom that people seem to be claiming that this is somehow laudable, because it’s slightly denser than Northeastern suburbia:



That looks like hell on Earth.
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  #82  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
WHO would want that?!
me.

it's nowhere close to densely populated enough to support the kind of ped-friendly urban environment that i desire.

and as a dyed-in-the-wool walker/cyclist, the disconnectivity of that kind of area would drive me insane.

and on top of that, it's ugly as fuck.
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  #83  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
me.

it's nowhere close to densely populated enough to support the kind of ped-friendly urban environment that i desire.

and as a dyed-in-the-wool walker/cyclist, the disconnectivity of that kind of area would drive me insane.

and on top of that, it's ugly as fuck.
Yet more people find it desirable because the suburbs have exploded with growth and are forecast to continue to be the drivers of growth in America.
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  #84  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Wait? People swept into the river? How do people get into the sewers to begin with?
swept into a lined creek in their back yard somehow, that then dumps into a massive tunnel under the city, then into a canal...

to be fair, the extreme flooding was associated with hurricane ike.
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  #85  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:15 PM
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Yet more people find it desirable because the suburbs have exploded with growth and are forecast to continue to be the drivers of growth in America.
sure.

and celine dion has sold WAY more records than the pixies.

most people suck at liking good things.



you asked the question about who wouldn't want to live in that suburban hellhole, and i merely answered it.

i'm fully aware that there's a market for that kind of craptacular development, but it holds no appeal for me.
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  #86  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I just can’t fathom that people seem to be claiming that this is somehow laudable, because it’s slightly denser than Northeastern suburbia:
I strongly prefer urban environments - or even semi-urban somewhat walkable environments like "streetcar suburbs" - to that.

However, from a land-use perspective, that is indeed a more efficient way to develop than the pastoral, large-lot New England suburbia.

To provide an urban analogy, this is much nicer to look at than this. But the latter packs a lot more people in, and is much more functional as a walkable urban neighborhood. A few little rich lower-density enclaves are okay, but if a good portion of your metro is like that, it works out as a shittier deal for everyone who isn't in those enclaves.
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  #87  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I just can’t fathom that people seem to be claiming that this is somehow laudable, because it’s slightly denser than Northeastern suburbia:



That looks like hell on Earth.
That's for sure a better way to build than how the Northeast suburbs do. In neighborhoods like that, you can very easily walk to a school, or grocery store, or bank, etc. There are suburbs in the Houston area for example, that have trails that lead to neighborhood shopping centers for this very reason. Will it be as close like if you were in the core of town? No, but it's way better than how the suburbs are on the EC.

I just find it interesting that the same people that throw shade at the Sunbelt for having more sprawly central cities are perfectly okay with the suburbs of the more dense cities sprawling much worse than the Sunbelt ones. In the end, it means urban area sizes and densities are relatively the same among like-sized metro areas, except the Sunbelt metros have better opportunities to become denser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Plano appears to have one walkable block (15th between K and J). The rest is typical Texas. And this is a city of 270k? Come on...

Every Westchester village with a train station has more than that. Mt Kisco has a better walkable built environment than Plano:

https://goo.gl/maps/XH8pQd2YwsF2
It's certainty more than a block and there is a lot of development going on in Downtown Plano, which also has two light rail stops. It's not stuck in time. In fact, there's a small fight going on with some residents who are worried at all the development the city has planned for it, even though there is no more land left in the city. This is the type of stuff you're seeing in many Sunbelt suburbs as corporations continue to move here, people need places to live, and cities want to increase their tax base. You probably wouldn't see this with stagnant growth.
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  #88  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
sure.

and celine dion has sold WAY more records than the pixies.

most people suck at liking good things.



you asked the question about who wouldn't want to live in that suburban hellhole, and i merely answered it.

i'm fully aware that there's a market for that kind of craptacular development, but it holds no appeal for me.
People like some space and decent amenities, this isn’t really about liking a built form or not.
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  #89  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I just can’t fathom that people seem to be claiming that this is somehow laudable, because it’s slightly denser than Northeastern suburbia:



That looks like hell on Earth.
It’s certainly more laudable than the super sprawl of the NE. I’m sure that looks lovely to your average immigrant to the US.
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  #90  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
People like some space and decent amenities, this isn’t really about liking a built form or not.
Not to mention there are different looks of these sunbelt suburbs. The three areas mentioned in this thread, The Woodlands, Plano, and Irvine, don't all look like each other. The Woodlands is in a slightly hilly pine forest, Plano in gently rolling prairie, and Irvine set near some foothills. They're basically built the same though and have the similar functions for their metro areas.
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  #91  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I just can’t fathom that people seem to be claiming that this is somehow laudable, because it’s slightly denser than Northeastern suburbia:



That looks like hell on Earth.
Hell on earth yes, but it ruins less land.

I'm not from the desert but I lived in one for six years growing up. My dad was a BLM planner. One thing I learned was that desert has value....both as an ecosystem and by having its own beauty and human interest. It doesn't have to be a forest or farm for paving it to do real damage.

Plus the distance/efficiency thing, energy use, etc.
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  #92  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
Not to mention there are different looks of these sunbelt suburbs. The three areas mentioned in this thread, The Woodlands, Plano, and Irvine, don't all look like each other. The Woodlands is in a slightly hilly pine forest, Plano in gently rolling prairie, and Irvine set near some foothills. They're basically built the same though and have the similar functions for their metro areas.
I just want to know if you are arguing that this type of development is ideal or if you are saying its not that bad?
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  #93  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post

I just find it interesting that the same people that throw shade at the Sunbelt for having more sprawly central cities are perfectly okay with the suburbs of the more dense cities sprawling much worse than the Sunbelt ones.
don't lump me in with those people.

i demonize all post-war auto-centric sprawl regardless of where it's found.

i'm an equal opportunity sprawl-hater.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Aug 16, 2018 at 3:23 PM.
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  #94  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:12 PM
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It's also worth noting that if you actually look at European countries which have suburbs (mostly northern Europe) they're far more akin to Sun Belt suburbs than to New England "pastoral suburbs."

Some examples:

Copenhagen:
Paris:
Hamburg:

Though really the typology is more similar to U.S. streetcar suburbs or the first autocentric suburbs from the 20s-40s. Still, there is nothing like New England's low-density suburbia anywhere in Europe, from what I know. Indeed, Europeans are often surprised to see how many people live in the midst of forestland, instead of building densely and keeping more open space undeveloped.
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  #95  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsule F View Post
I just want to know if you are arguing that this type of development is ideal or if you are saying its not that bad?
Read post #87.
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  #96  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Yet more people find it desirable because the suburbs have exploded with growth and are forecast to continue to be the drivers of growth in America.
That's a fallacy, suburban growth is not about desirability.
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  #97  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Hell on earth yes, but it ruins less land.

I'm not from the desert but I lived in one for six years growing up. My dad was a BLM planner. One thing I learned was that desert has value....both as an ecosystem and by having its own beauty and human interest. It doesn't have to be a forest or farm for paving it to do real damage.

Plus the distance/efficiency thing, energy use, etc.
That is our philosophy in South Florida as well. It is better to cram people into discreet suburbs rather than have people spread out into pristine wilderness.
Environmentally, it is better to have our suburbs look like this
A: https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+...!4d-80.3311992

rather than this
B: https://www.google.com/maps/place/SW...!4d-80.3019857

-obviously as car oriented suburbs go B is more desirable place to live than A which is why homes in B go in the multi millions and A stores poor people but if B was more widespread than A we would run out of room pretty quickly
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  #98  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
Really? Then what is that there on the second link then:
I saw the Legacy office park link and the open air mall link. In any case, there's nothing in Plano remotely like South Norwalk, and your claims are absurd.
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Like what was said earlier, there are plenty of quaint downtowns in the DFW and Houston metro areas. I
Now you're changing the subject.

Every place in the U.S. has random "quaint" downtowns. Now you're pivoting away form the "if we pack sprawl into density aka Irvine/Woodlands/Plano it becomes the same as a 19th century downtown" to "Texas has 19th century downtowns like everywhere else in U.S. so is the same as South Norwalk". In any case, no.

The Northeast Corridor is really the only place in the U.S. where you have extensive pre-auto suburban enclaves, with the small footprint streetfronts, built around railroads or streetcars. You can't replicate this through new urbanist sprawl and you can't replicate this through random legacy suburban downtowns.

There are some other, later versions of prewar urbanity in Chicago and Midwest, and on West Coast and here and there elsewhere, but of a different sort, and in the Sunbelt these enclaves are rarer than hen's teeth. But you aren't gonna replicate a pre-zoning streetscape in 2018.
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  #99  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:56 PM
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That's a fallacy, suburban growth is not about desirability.
Of course it, all you see is built form.
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  #100  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2018, 3:59 PM
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I'm not sure why we're still acting like the only way to preserve the natural environment is through dense suburbs. A low-density city core with dense suburbs is totally counterintuitive. Other than Miami, Florida cores aren't very dense.
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