Hamilton Street Railway Route ideas.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

two-way streets are better for pedestrians, cyclists AND yes, a little bit of slower car traffic is acceptable, especially once we have BRT with it's own lanes never getting slowed in traffic. It'll be a good way to draw new transit users.

So you want to stimulate transit traffic by sabotaging automobile traffic?

[miketoronto]

What is the big deal if it takes you guys 2min to zoom through downtown instead of 1 min????????

Maybe slowing the traffic a little will let people see the offerings in the city and actually maybe stop. If you want a freeway go on one. You don't need downtown streets to act like a freeway so people can get out of the city as fast as they can.

[raisethehammer]

I wouldn't consider calming Hamilton's 5-lane freeways tearing through residential neighbourhoods to be 'sabotaging traffic'.
The only thing being sabotaged in this city is the quality of life and business climate of residents and business-owners in the downtown/urban city. Like Mike said, if you want a freeway, go drive on one. don't friggin ruin my neighbourhood and run innocent people over just to shave 2 minutes off the trip to work.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

What is the big deal if it takes you guys 2min to zoom through downtown instead of 1 min????????

Maybe slowing the traffic a little will let people see the offerings in the city and actually maybe stop.

This is a very big maybe. If the offerings in downtown Hamilton are truly worth checking out, then people will visit them regardless of whether the streets are uni- or bi-directional. I certainly hope that none of these businesses place much dependence upon passing motorists to visit them based on chance sightings at a red light.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If you want a freeway go on one. You don't need downtown streets to act like a freeway so people can get out of the city as fast as they can.

You sound as if you want to trap people into a confined space. If it becomes more difficult to get out of a certain area, then chances are that it will also become more difficult to enter that area. If there is a reason to be downtown, then people will find their way there and stay there.

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I wouldn't consider calming Hamilton's 5-lane freeways tearing through residential neighbourhoods to be 'sabotaging traffic'.
The only thing being sabotaged in this city is the quality of life and business climate of residents and business-owners in the downtown/urban city. Like Mike said, if you want a freeway, go drive on one. don't friggin ruin my neighbourhood and run innocent people over just to shave 2 minutes off the trip to work.

raisethehammer, I have read your last few posts and you seem to strictly speak in absolutes rather than in relative terms, and you seem to do so in a somewhat hostile manner. Please recognize that there is always more than one side to every story and that you can attract more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

The "freeways" that you speak of very likely do not have 100 km/hr speed limits and very likely have traffic lights that are timed for flow at 50 km/hr. If somebody is driving at an excessive speed, then that person is likely to hit a red light sooner rather than later.

On the related topic of safety, I have never run an innocent person over and do not ever plan to do so --- but would I be more or less likely to do so under a two-way system rather than a one-way system? I do not know for certain, and I would bet my bottom dollar that you do not either. On the whole, there is a strong general case to be made that one-way streets are safer for both motorists and pedestrians than are two-way streets.

Efficient flow of traffic should be of interest to everyone. Creation of artificial congestion for the sake of congestion should be of interest to no one.

[the dude]

Originally Posted by BCTed

The "freeways" that you speak of very likely do not have 100 km/hr speed limits and very likely have traffic lights that are timed for flow at 50 km/hr. If somebody is driving at an excessive speed, then that person is likely to hit a red light sooner rather than later.

you have to know hamilton, bcted. for example, main st is, for all intents and purposes, a freeway. it's a 5-lane, one-way street with synchronized traffic lights that runs right through downtown. its speed limit is 60km/h but people cruise along a lot faster than that. it's dangerous and unpleasant and people have been killed in auto accidents in recent months. it's not good for pedestrians or downtown businesses.

[the dude]

i think we've degenerated from the original topic of this thread: HSR routes. BRT is great and i hope the city seriously pursues it. that said, if the city's truly committed to public transit then LRT should be on the docket. having more buses and providing better service would certainly increase ridership and possibly reduce congestion. on the other hand, having LRT could potentially increase ridership exponentially. the reality is that people aren't turned on by buses. studies have shown that people are far more likely to use LRT if available rather than bus service. i think BRT should be a first step towards LRT. naturally, the drawback to LRT is the cost. ottawa's proposed LRT project is slated to cost somewhere between $800 million and $1 billion. that's not chump change. the feds and province will be contributing $400 million of that cost, though. anyway, i thought i might mention LRT as a viable, realistic solution to our public transit woes.

[realcity]

this is on King Street. The westbound thruway. Main street is the east bound thruway.

[realcity]

The problem with the argument about efficient traffic movement is it's never efficient enough? At what point do we balance, transit, cyclists and pedestrians with car traffic efficacy?

Read about London England's recent traffic changes to the city. Everyone said any hinderance to automobile traffic would be a disaster. I proved to be wrong, and the city and residents are better off now.

[raisethehammer]

the above photo of flowers on a street pole is from an accident scene 2 weeks ago where a 21 year old was sliced in half by a speeding car, steps from his apartment.
I've seen accidents on Locke St and on Queen West in Toronto and believe me, nobody ever has the chance to even go fast enough to slice someone in half. Usually not even fast enough to cause major damage. Lights timed at 60km allow people to reach speeds of 120+ for several blocks before hitting a red.
And if you know Hamilton, you'll know that there are huge stretches like between Catherine and Wellington with no lights.
If I sound hostile, I apologize. I have no use for allowing suburban 'through' traffic to ruin the quality of life and businesses in my city centre.
Businesses don't rely on people stopping at red lights. They rely on people on the sidewalks. People aren't on the sidewalks when they can't hear themselves think. I know in our society people like me are such lunctic outcasts because I haven't sold the farm to Ford and Imperial Oil ,but hey, that's life. I live downtown. I walk downtown. I bike downtown. I'm raising a family downtown. 70% of vehicles in downtown Hamilton are 'cut-through' vehicles...coming from the far east end to west end or vice versa. I have no desire to see my local streets used as highways for them when our city is surrounded by highways. If that 70% of cars never came downtonw again I'd be the happiest guy alive and our city would have a fighting chance at reving back to life. Forgive me for caring about my city's economy and prosperity.

[SteelTown]

We gotta get more pressure to calm traffic down along Main St. I know the mother of the son who got killed recently wanted to set out a petition maybe RTH can help and get people to sign it up to force the city to do something about Main St.

Now is the time to act. Perhaps set our own petition to City Hall. You said about 7,000 checked RTH website so that could really help.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by realcity

Read about London England's recent traffic changes to the city. Everyone said any hinderance to automobile traffic would be a disaster. I proved to be wrong, and the city and residents are better off now.

London is a unique case. Sadly trying to apply that to Hamilton, Toronto or another Canadian city, would not be good.

In London before the congestion charge went into place, something like 80% of people commuting into central London took public transit. Car drivers are actually the minority in London, eventhough all they do is yell about traffic.

In Hamilton, Toronto, and other Canadian cities, transit riders are the minority, and charging car drivers is not going to do anything.

London is getting away with car charges, because drivers are the minority. Even in the Greater London area including suburbs, over half the population uses public transit daily, and hundreds of thousands more walk, bike, etc.

Not the same here. Put a charge in a Canadian city, and the city would probably be dead the next day.

You do not want car charges in Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

i agree with you.
That's why I find it funny when people respond to my suggestions as though I'm proposing to close our city to cars.
Think people - I'm talking about turning 5-lane streets into 1 or 2 lanes each way with BRT lanes, bike lanes or wider sidewalks/trees depending on the street.
It shows how addicted we are to our cars when those suggestions are met with fear and trembling...Oh no! I might hit the odd red light in Hamilton now!!
Better than hitting pedestrians.

[SteelTown]

Main St I doubt will ever be a two way street. To make Main St two way that would require the city and the province to change a portion of highway 403 and the city to knock down the exit and entrance ramp to the 403 therefore costing millions that the city can't afford.

That would also cut access to west Hamilton forcing people to take Aberdeen St for about a year or two well the city knocks down the ramp and build a new one.

So realistically the city should do the same with Main St as they did with Bay St. Reduced it down to 3 lanes but also include a bus lane for the BRT. Doing that would help make bigger sidewalks.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

So realistically the city should do the same with Main St as they did with Bay St. Reduced it down to 3 lanes but also include a bus lane for the BRT. Doing that would help make bigger sidewalks.

I totally agree with you, Steeltown. There is no way Main will ever be two way.

And the one-way system is NOT the reason ppl speed. If you go any faster than 55 km/h you're going to hit red lights. The system is timed so you hit green lights every light aslong as you're going the speed limit!!

Main should be converted into 3 lanes - two lanes dedicated to BRT, seperated from the other 3 lanes with a small tree-lined boulevard. It would look very nice!

[SteelTown]

Since I'm extremely bored at work here's what I did to kill time lol. A visual demonstration of what I think would be good for Main St



Bigger sidewalks, 3 one way lanes (reduced from 5), a lane for trees (the same kind that's along Main St in front of McMaster) if the city has money perhaps flowers and then a BRT lane.

The Beeline goes in a cicle east from McMaster along Main St and then it goes west from Eastgate along King St so there's only 1 BRT lane needed for Main St.

[the dude]

i'd like to see two lanes for BRT, two lanes for other vehicular traffic and a bike lane. it would still be an unpleasant street to spend time on but what can you do?

you could avoid the massive costs associated with the 403 by converting only part of main to two-way. maybe from dundurn heading east. i don't know, i haven't sat down to really think about that, so maybe it wouldn't make sense.

[SteelTown]

You only need one lane for the BRT on Main St. You could drop the lane of trees for a bike lane.

King St West is going to be converted into a two way street but that's from James to Queen. There's a reason why it stops at Queen, 403 ramp.

[raisethehammer]

downtown I think the BRT should be on Main both ways....from Queen to Victoria. Then King can go 2-way through this stretch and be closed for festivals, events etc....
Main only needs 2 lanes for cars plus 1 BRT each way downtown. East and west of downtown Main should have 24-hour parking spaces on the north curb, 2 car lanes and 1 eastbound BRT lane. King East and West (outside of the core) should also have the same setup - parking on the south curb, 2 lanes for cars and 1 BRT West. Then, Victoria/Wellington and Queen should go 2-way to allow for BRT buses to switch over to Main and King where necessary.
I've been in cars travelling over 100km for several lights on Main before hitting a red. This 55/60km stuff is only true if you want to hit every single light green from 403 to Delta. Racers are more than happy with having long stretches like from Dundurn to Queen or John to Wentworth where they can go over 100km an hour before hitting a red. The lights should be staggered, and there should be more of them (like there are in the Emerald area)

[SteelTown]

You have to be realistic with Main St. there's no way Hamilton will approve a proposal to turn a 5 one way lane into 2 one way lane with staggered lighting. That would cause complete chaos. There’s a reason why the city didn’t do that with Bay St.

The red lights are set up because Main St is the busiest road in Hamilton and if you added staggered lighting instead you'll have cars backed up to the lights the cars already passed therefore complete gridlock during rush hour.

I doubt the city will ever turn King St from James to Victoria into a two way street. Doing that would be one lane each way, unless you take away curb parking, which would completely stall traffic.

[raisethehammer]

i think 2 lanes plust BRT would be more than adequate on King and Main.
Bay St is ridiculous....there should be 24-7 parking on the east curb between King and Main and they don't need two turning lanes onto York...the reason they left it like that is because this is Hamilton and we always overbuild our roadways.
You rarely see more than 2 or 3 cars stopped at the red lights on Bay St.