We can learn from history Rail-based transit will work in the Fraser Valley

[SpongeG]

We can learn from history Rail-based transit will work in the Fraser Valley

By frankbucholtz

Oct 10 2007

The funny thing about history is that we rarely learn from it.

While this is true of almost everything, at present it is particularly true in the field of transportation — something that affects most Langley residents a lot, given the amount of time they spend going to and from work, school, shopping and home.

The debate over the Gateway Project and the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge has exposed the fact that both proponents and opponents have paid little attention to the history of the Fraser Valley and its transportation corridors.

Two specific comments from readers in the past few weeks demonstrate that.

Bob Griffiths, a lifetime Langley resident who grew up in Coghlan, remembers the days of the B.C. Electric interurban well. He used the tram regularly, as it allowed people in his area to get to and from what is now Langley City (Langley Prairie then) and, more importantly, get to New Westminster and Vancouver.

He told me a few weeks ago that his father’s property was among those expropriated to build Highway 1, where it crossed 256 Street. The architects of the freeway project, Premier W.A.C. Bennett and Highways Minister Phil Gaglardi, came out to Coghlan one time to see how construction was going, and his older brother George struck up a conversation with them.

George suggested to them that it would be a good idea to put a rapid transit line up the freeway, given that there was plenty of right of way, and both men said it was an idea worthy of further thought.

Last week, I spoke with Henry Ewert, the acknowledged expert on the history of the B.C. Electric, who knows more details about interurban service than anyone else I know of.

He was a very popular speaker at the Douglas Day banquet a few years ago and is very interested in the whole discussion over how to best transport people in the South Fraser region.

He was telling me that he occasionally travels to downtown Vancouver from his Surrey home to lecture at SFU’s downtown campus. He finds it is often a two-hour trip by car to use the Port Mann Bridge and Highway 1.

When the interurbans were running, as slow as they were in many areas (they used the city streets in part of Vancouver and made stops every mile or so), he could have made the same trip in about an hour and 15 minutes.

History tells us that a rail transit corridor will move people very efficiently, and whether it is along the freeway or on the interurban right-of-way, it could again work very well.

It is obvious that there has been a great deal of growth here in the past 20 years. At the same time, there has been minimal expansion of the freeway system (two HOV lanes were added west of the bridge, and an eastbound lane on the bridge). Perhaps most regrettably, there has been little expansion of transit to serve the growing population here, thus forcing people into their cars far too often.

There needs to be rail-based transit of some sort out into the valley, at least as far as Abbotsford. It’s time has come. We can’t simply wait six more years for rapid buses on the Port Mann Bridge.

http://www.langleytimes.com/portals-...1080037&more=0

[twoNeurons]

There seems to be a momentum growing for more rail. I'm glad that not many have really been waxing poetic about the bus proposal.

[bugsy]

We certainly needs more rail in Vancouver. And I don't mean the glorified streetcars going nowhere fast called LRTs either. If only we had real trains, running on real electrified tracks, with EMUs from real train manufacturers (Bombardier is a joke) on both commuter and inter-city routes.

I say bring back the British Columbia Electric Railway as a public-private partnership, or break TransLink's monopoly and let someone with the investment vision go at it themselves. There's unused and abandoned track all over the place that can be put to better use.

[Bureaucromancer]

One of the things thats struck me about the FVLR proposal as written is that it makes the LRT based Evergreen potentially sensible after all. Operate it as a branch of the express route from New Westminster to Vancouver with transfers to a now "local" skytrain at Lougheed. Certainly worth an origin destination study for Evergreen. For that matter has one been done? This certainly makes sense if the biggest destination is going to be downtown, probably not if more are going to destination ON the Expo and Millenium lines...

[Metro-One]

Grade separated rail (skytrain) is perfect for connecting all of the inner Metro city centers, it is perfect for Coquitlam and UBC. Heavy rail should then be used to connect the further city centers (Abbotsford, Chilliwak, White Rock, etc...) and street cars should only be used for short distances around the cores of the city centers, connecting the skytrain and heavy rail stations to local attractions and amenities. At grade LRT is NOT a backbone rail service. And yes, i do support gateway but i also believe we should build a heavy rail line to the Abbotsford Langley City area. I also love the West Coast Express but we need to expand its service. I also support adding the rapid bus, for could you imagine how good our transit system would become? Two or three heavy rail lines, an extensive mini metro system, street cars around the city cores and rapid bus along the highways? In 15 years we could have one of North Americas best transit systems with a decent freeway system too.

[Bureaucromancer]

Keep in mind a system like Calgary, and that's what I see FVLR being like; essentially grade seperated, but using manually driven trains so you don't need full grade seperation of everything. Using it as an express route from New Westminster to Vancvouver Centre its really mostly a convienent bonus of reusing the existing corridors. I agree that GRADE SEPERATION is needed for Evergreen, but assuming you had that express route into central Vancouver, which route would should Evergreen through route with (I'm pretty sure that it would need a new study to get a decent answer).

As for Skytrain, I really don't see it as being needed in a route heading up the valley, potentially as far as Chilliwack, and it wouldn't have a speed advantage in the existing rail corridor anyway. I'd love to see Skytrain extended to UBC, and bouth southeast and south in Surrey, but using the former BC Electric route for service farther makes a lot of sense. Using light rail technology a shorter route along the highway between Langley and Abbotsford might also be affordable.

Anyway, my point is that Skytrain definatly makes sense everywhere it's been proposed, but I really see no point in using it for a route farther up the Fraser Valley, and insisting on it seems most likely to kill any proposal. If the FVLR takes advantage of the rail corridor near the Lougheed highway it can also be extended to Pacific Central station and be an express version of the Millenium line between New Westminster and Vancouver; such a service does raise a question of which line to connect Evergreen to.

Realistically though, what I'd like to see in the short term is some DMUs along the lines of what Ottawa has put into a commuter style service, entirely on the existing route, from King George to Chilliwack. It can be cut back to Abbotsford if the ridership isn't there and we get a decent idea of the market for a more fully developed service in the valley.

[cornholio]

The valley doesnt have the densities to support rapid transit, that includes LRT. How ever it can support a limited rail serice such as the WCE, and thats what they should get. Rapid bus and regular bus routes are sufficient, when the rapid bus routes become congested than you can worry about replacing them with rapid transit, and the best thing to do is to continue with technology we already are using region wide.

[officedweller]

Yeah, having Skytrain extended too far will also increase the journey time - while commuter rail can get passengers faster to a distribution node/hub. i.e. which is what is planned for WCE and Evergreen. Downtown workers continue on to Waterfront, those that work elsewhere can transfer to Evergreen at Port Moody or Coquitlam.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer

As for Skytrain, I really don't see it as being needed in a route heading up the valley, potentially as far as Chilliwack, and it wouldn't have a speed advantage in the existing rail corridor anyway. I'd love to see Skytrain extended to UBC, and bouth southeast and south in Surrey, but using the former BC Electric route for service farther makes a lot of sense. Using light rail technology a shorter route along the highway between Langley and Abbotsford might also be affordable.

Preaching to the choir.

[Metro-One]

The outer valley needs heavy rail and raid bus, not LRT. LRT is too slow with too many stops in such low density highly spread areas. Heavy rail works for it will have 1 to 2 stations in each community, such as the west Coast, and people who take those trains will drive maybe 2 to 5 kilometers to the station houses and then park and ride to downtown or the nearest skytrain transfer etc...

[Metro-One]

We actually need more park and ride facilities. More people will ride transit if there was better parking, and this is the truth. Many people, such as my self, love trains but hate buses. I will try to avoid a bus at all costs, unless it is direct and short, such as the 145 from production way to SFU, which i take often. I always get motion sickness from buses. My point being many more people will take sky-train and such future ideas as heavy rail in the south valley if decent parking is provided. This style of transit was also common where i was living in Japan. Many people i knew would drive to the nearest train station and park their car there for the day, and if park and ride was too expensive for them then they would have a family member pick them up or drop them off in their cars. There were very few buses in Japan actually *relative to the number of trains, it was almost all trains and cars.

Ok, aigan i have rambled, i think my main point is that heavy rail is best for low density areas such as the valley for they enable larger park and ride station facilities.

[fever]

The main thing I'd suggest with rail in the valley is to avoid having more than an absolute minimum number of stops. One station every 5 to 8 km is much much faster than a typical light rail system with stations every 1 to 2 km, and it's also much cheaper because you don't need so many trains to meet the same schedule.

I'd support park and ride as an intermediate use until the land around the station can be developed as a TOD. Good biking infrastructure should be included too, especially around the stations in the flat parts of the valley, like Cloverdale.

[SpongeG]

there probably isn't that large amount of riders for something larger and faster

again if there are stats to show it I am sure its a small number of people that need to get downtown

a good link to surrey would be a better idea

people from abbotsford needing to get downtown can already take the west coast express to do that trip

the people travelling from Abbotsford to Surrey or Langley have nothing

[bugsy]

Originally Posted by fever

avoid having more than an absolute minimum number of stops. One station every 5 to 8 km is much much faster than a typical light rail system with stations every 1 to 2 km

Can I has limited express?



Pic related, It's a Chizu Express HOT7000.

[fever]

I don't think it has to go downtown to start with. imo, Scott Road to Langley would be the best candidate for a starter line, and connecting South Surrey would be the second step. There are a lot of issues brought up in the report on this route but they don't seem insurmountable.

I was thinking more like a Bombardier Talent (but it's not really important)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:O..._by_Wilder.JPG

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The outer valley needs heavy rail and raid bus, not LRT. LRT is too slow with too many stops in such low density highly spread areas. Heavy rail works for it will have 1 to 2 stations in each community, such as the west Coast, and people who take those trains will drive maybe 2 to 5 kilometers to the station houses and then park and ride to downtown or the nearest skytrain transfer etc...

You do realize that light rail does not necessitate more stops. It just facilitates more because the start and stop times are less than with heavy rail. For that matter, a segregated streetcar would go as fast as a segregated light rail, which would go nearly as fast as heavy rail. One point though is that light rail is almost always electric while heavy rail is almost always diesel based.

[bugsy]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

It just facilitates more because the start and stop times are less than with heavy rail. For that matter, a segregated streetcar would go as fast as a segregated light rail, which would go nearly as fast as heavy rail.

Glorified street cars? Faster then a REAL train?

Originally Posted by paradigm4

One point though is that light rail is almost always electric while heavy rail is almost always diesel based.

EXCUSE ME?

[Bureaucromancer]

In all seriousness, look at the stats on LRVs. In there own right of way they ARE (not can be, ARE) just as fast as what you call "real trains". To me though, big advantage of LRVs over heavy (commuter) rail in the valley is the ability to build in road medians, specifically, heavy rail is never going to be built down the Fraser Highway, or across the Port Mann bridge, light rail could.

[Metro-One]

But the system should and probably will be designed so that the rapid bus corridors will be turned into LRTs. the reason i feel we should do heavy rail is that heavy rail can run on existing tracks through out the lower mainland and that it can carry many more people in fewer trains and has a more obvious schedule, essentially another west coast express. Then the line could be extended further east all the way to hope and beyond, you could actually extend it one day all the way to the Okanagan to make it a larger southern BC regional rail network, not just a local commuter network. Just pipe dreams now i guess. Also heavy rail trains I feel attract many more riders in less dense areas, again the west coast express is the perfect example. I use to live in Maple ridge and after its first three stops in the morning (mission, port haney and maple meadows) the train is packed normally. Now a ROW LRT that does not ride down the meridians of busy streets might also work, but it would have to have exceptionally long LRT trains with very few stations and high operating speeds on a fixed schedule (example every half hour) People here seem to think very small and do not realize how to market towards people in outer lying cities, in fact Abbotsford is considered a separate Metro district than the GVRD, so this in a way would be a metro to metro line, therefore for the possibilities of extending the trains to other metro areas (chilliwak, Kelowna, Squamish, Kamloops, etc...) heavy rail is best.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by bugsy

Glorified street cars? Faster then a REAL train?

EXCUSE ME?

Uh, yea, let's not go all Vancouverite-SkyTrain FTW-glorified streetcar.

If then run on rails, they are trains.

And yes, one of the advantages of doing a light rail is that we can run them through city centres, as well as along exurban rail corridors. Some LRVs can run on both light and heavy rail track btw.

Speed is relative to stops, basically. A segregated right-of-way, with minimal crossings and stations would go very fast, no matter what form of technology - rails or road.

And yes, there are electrified heavy rail routes. I'm not saying there isn't. My point was, albeit a long one, that if we are going to make the investment to electrify an old heavy rail route, we might as well just build a new light rail line along the same corridor. It would be more flexible for transit services, and would last a much longer time.