Cross-border cultural/economic regions

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Blitz

By far the most heavily integrated economically (and probably culturally too) is SW Ont and SE Mich. Just taking into account the trade going back and forth each day in the form of automotive parts is probably more than all of the other regions combined.

Southern Ontario, except for Windsor, is actually pretty disconnected from the Great Lakes states in everything except economics.

The east and west coasts are really the only parts of Canada with strong links to their neighboring US regions outside of economics/commerce.

[SignalHillHiker]

In Boston, Montreal = Canada. It was the reference point everyone brought up trying to place me if they didn't know where I'm actually from. Literally everyone. Everything in Canada was measured by proximity to Montreal.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Southern Ontario, except for Windsor, is actually pretty disconnected from the Great Lakes states in everything except economics.

The east and west coasts are really the only parts of Canada with strong links to their neighboring US regions outside of economics/commerce.

Yeah, you get a sense when you're getting close to a major city. And I didn't feel any sense of transition from Southwestern Ontario to "Detroit's orbit" until way past Chatham - pretty much at the Essex county line. Once you're in Windsor, though, it's clear you're in a different world than London ON, and the architecture and demographic stats bear this out.

Vancouver is more culturally connected to Seattle than any other Canadian city is to its closest American equivalent. This may have more to do with Seattle than Vancouver - Seattle and the PNW is sort of unique in that it's a very urban, liberal and actually sort of old part of the United States that is physically very isolated from the rest of the US. Also, Seattle and northwestern Washington is one of the few northern border areas of the US that is as affluent as its Canadian counterpart across the border. That probably means that a higher percentage of Seattleites have the means and inquisitiveness to make a visit to Vancouver than, say, Buffalonians who want to make a trip to Toronto...let alone people from upstate NY bothering to visit Montreal.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, you get a sense when you're getting close to a major city. And I didn't feel any sense of transition from Southwestern Ontario to "Detroit's orbit" until way past Chatham - pretty much at the Essex county line. Once you're in Windsor, though, it's clear you're in a different world than London ON, and the architecture and demographic stats bear this out.

Vancouver is more culturally connected to Seattle than any other Canadian city is to its closest American equivalent. This may have more to do with Seattle than Vancouver - Seattle and the PNW is sort of unique in that it's a very urban, liberal and actually sort of old part of the United States that is physically very isolated from the rest of the US. Also, Seattle and northwestern Washington is one of the few northern border areas of the US that is as affluent as its Canadian counterpart across the border. That probably means that a higher percentage of Seattleites have the means and inquisitiveness to make a visit to Vancouver than, say, Buffalonians who want to make a trip to Toronto...let alone people from upstate NY bothering to visit Montreal.

Indeed. Seattle has major companies which help define the economy of the entire PNW. Starbucks' first expansion was Vancouver, companies like Microsoft and Amazon have large workforces and offices in Vancouver.

[hipster duck]

Seattle is definitely not a Canadian city, but Seattle might be the easiest American city for Canadians from all parts of Canada to process.

A lot of "American-isms" aren't really there. The city isn't particularly black, Hispanic or Christian by American standards. There's a lot of wealth in Seattle but displays of wealth aren't ostentatious - and probably less flashy than displays of wealth in Vancouver or Toronto. The poor neighbourhoods don't look abandoned or dangerous. The downtown feels like it was always a meaningful place for middle class people to come to, even in the 70s and 80s. Seattleites even are known for having a demeanour that's polite, but reserved. The gregarious Southerner who wants to share her life story with you in a grocery line isn't a thing there.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm with ya until the last sentence. Otherwise all applies here as well.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Southern Ontario, except for Windsor, is actually pretty disconnected from the Great Lakes states in everything except economics.

Yeah, St. Catharines, Niagara Falls and Fort Erie don't feel like they're part of Buffalo's hinterland at all, which might seem odd because Niagara Falls Ontario is essentially a twin city with Niagara Falls New York, and Fort Erie is right across the river from Buffalo. This is undoubtedly due to the proximity to Toronto, whereas Windsor is just way too far away from Toronto.

As others have said, there is little to no appreciable Detroit influence in London. I visit at least once a month, and I've never seen a Detroit sports jersey on anyone there. London is 200 km away from Windsor/Detroit, so it's not close.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The gregarious Southerner who wants to share her life story with you in a grocery line isn't a thing there.

They're still Americans, though. My wife and I were forced to listen to conversations like that on a bus trip once from San Francisco to Seattle. It was one of the most painful days of my life.

"You're from Iowa? My best friend Mary-Ann lived in Ohio once, and she told me you don't ever want to date someone from Cincinnati because of all the Germans there, but I'm not prejudiced, I eat spaghetti and burritos all the time, or at least I would if I didn't have to worry about my gallbladder now..."

[balletomane]

It'd be interesting to see a map of North America redrawn according to economic and cultural areas. I've seen many before but they are always interpretations of broad areas (i.e. Great Plains, West Coast, Northeast U.S. etc...). Although these are true it does little from a local perspective.

[Architype]

The world has always experienced migrations that go east to west or weat to east more prevalently than in any north or south directions. This explains our slightly limited and sometimes puzzling geographic relationship with the United States. Mostly our connections are limited to a few miles either side of the border, excepting climate related phenomena such as snowbirds seeking winter refuge in the sun. There is north south trade of course out of necessity; we can't grow oranges here, and so on, but we tend to have more cultural similarities with those at some considerable distances east or west of us than to the south or north. Because of that interaction, connections were always incredibly more fused, reinforcing east west connections over north south ones. The Canadian USA border is a result of that natural flow within similar climatic conditions, a further hindrance to north south connections. Most cross border interaction is largely just the result of close proximity.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Southern Ontario, except for Windsor, is actually pretty disconnected from the Great Lakes states in everything except economics.

The east and west coasts are really the only parts of Canada with strong links to their neighboring US regions outside of economics/commerce.

Not true, the old city of Chatham is very much in Detroit's orbit, not quite to the degree that Windsor/Essex are, but it still is. They receive Detroit tv and radio stations, shop and visit regularly, the Detroit Freepress is sold locally, and it's less than an hour from the city.
Sarnia and area is also pretty connected to SE Michigan, but less so than Windsor/Essex. The three extreme Southwestern Ontario counties are the most connected to SE Michigan, after that, the influence peters out quickly.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

The Vancouver - Seattle Area is pretty close in distance as this photo shows

http://i.imgur.com/e3SXesM.jpg

I remember when Futureshop expanded into the states they had a few stores in the seattle area and bellingham. A family friend of ours worked as a regional manager for FutureShop and lived here in Vancouver area with his territory being WA State.

My roommate worked for a Magazine that was aimed at Canadians in the Vancouver area but often worked out of the office in Lynden WA just across the border from Aldergrove.

3 women I used to work with all owned property at the same place at Mt Baker in WA state, they said it was majority of Canadian owners who had a place there.

at least 3 women I worked with at an old job dated and married guys from Seattle, they had lived both sides of the border and ended up settling in Canada. So cross border relationships are pretty common here.

There are a few businesses you will often see listing their locations as Abbotsford, Surrey, Bellingham.

There are some radio stations based out of WA state whose main audience is Canadians so all the ads are for Canadian businesses. Same with KVOS or MeTV, its home is in bellingham but its advertising market is Vancouver and Seattle. They have an office located here in Vancouver as well. Before it became MeTV they used to do some shows that were shot here in Vancouver, like on the street events going on type of show. They still do segments here in commercial breaks.

CBC Vancouver is available well into south Seattle too, or at least it used to be.

I sometimes think we have more in common with SF and LA than Seattle and Portland, minus the weather of course. But that might be because half of my family's from California.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Pinion

CBC Vancouver is available well into south Seattle too, or at least it used to be.

I sometimes think we have more in common with SF and LA than Seattle and Portland, minus the weather of course. But that might be because half of my family's from California.

I can kind of see that. SF and LA feel very familiar where as Seattle always felt like Shelbyville to Vancouver's Springfield. That might be because I expect California to feel more foreign, and Seattle to feel more familiar. My expectations were out of whack.

[kirjtc2]

Originally Posted by someone123

New England and the Maritimes is also more of a historical than present-day phenomenon. There isn't much right around the border; the areas where most people live in both of those regions are several hours apart. It's not particularly easy to move back and forth anymore. I'm guessing you'd find more people in the Maritimes who've been to Toronto, Calgary, or maybe Vancouver than have been to Boston, even though Boston is the closest of those cities.

Agreed. I'd say the only areas that are truly integrated are right along the immediate NB-Maine border, at a very localized level (St. Stephen<>Calais or Houlton<>Woodstock).

You see a lot of people from Freddy or SJ going on shopping trips to Bangor or Portland, but I rarely ever see people come the other way. Geography probably plays a part...if you live in southern Maine, when you have Boston to the south and 200 miles of trees and moose separating you from the border, which way are you going to go?

The most common US license plates I see around Fredericton are Mass or NY.

[Taeolas]

Maine-New Brunswick in general are very linked to eachother; especially where the border is settled. (Calais/St Stephen, and Woodstock/Houlton up to Grand Falls basically). There's been a lot of cross border shopping and relationships for centuries. The farmers often helped each other irregardless of the border; and there's even a golf club that straddles the border up there.

Even in modern time, because of Irving and McCains businesses there's still a lot of cross-culture between the Saint John River Valley and Aroostock County.

Beyond that, the cross-border influence isn't as strong. The Maritimes get the US networks from Boston on the Cable/Sat systems, but the classic "Boston to Saint John's" relationship seems to have weakened in the modern age. Still, going to Bangor for concerts is a common prize for radio stations up here (In Fredericton at least); and there are bus tours down to Boston for sports and other events.

Personally, I think we would have a stronger connection if there was more up here. If Houlton or Calais were bigger to be more of a draw, then we would have a stronger connection. As is, it's more legacy than anything nowadays.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by lio45

One could also look at which areas have Tim Hortons' locations -- Michigan and WNY mostly. Though I do recall a Tim's in northern Ohio too. In all cases, these areas are right outside Southern Ontario...

I agree that there's a major interconnection for auto parts in ON and MI. Probably the biggest of all, dwarfing anything agricultural.

The expansion of Tim Horton's into New England didn't turn out well. They used to have significant presence there but a lot of locations closed down in the last few years.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by rousseau

They're still Americans, though. My wife and I were forced to listen to conversations like that on a bus trip once from San Francisco to Seattle. It was one of the most painful days of my life.

"You're from Iowa? My best friend Mary-Ann lived in Ohio once, and she told me you don't ever want to date someone from Cincinnati because of all the Germans there, but I'm not prejudiced, I eat spaghetti and burritos all the time, or at least I would if I didn't have to worry about my gallbladder now..."

Sounds like they're from Ohio though?

When I lived in Vancouver I always found it impossible to tell someone was from Washington or Oregon until any forum of measurement came up.

Originally Posted by le calmar

The expansion of Tim Horton's into New England didn't turn out well. They used to have significant presence there but a lot of locations closed down in the last few years.

That's dunkin' country...

[balletomane]

So it seems the general consensus is that the only modern day cross-border regions between Canada and the US are the Vancouver/Seattle area and the Detroit-Windsor area. I find this interesting, despite having the longest undefended border in the world, maybe that invisible line has created more cultural and economic division between both countries than one might assume. I'm not denying that Canada and the US are a dyad, I would just assume there would be more closely knit regions between the two.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by balletomane

So it seems the general consensus is that the only modern day cross-border regions between Canada and the US are the Vancouver/Seattle area and the Detroit-Windsor area. I find this interesting, despite having the longest undefended border in the world, maybe that invisible line has created more cultural and economic division between both countries than one might assume. I'm not denying that Canada and the US are a dyad, I would just assume there would be more closely knit regions between the two.

You're forgetting the upstate NY and Ottawa/Montreal area, which is far more populous than the Vancouver/Seattle area. I find that you come to quickly to a conclusion with just off the cuff feedback from members who've contributed to your thread, without further analysis. It's obvious that there's much more going on besides than the 'Vancouver/Seattle area and the Detroit-Windsor' areas.

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

You're forgetting the upstate NY and Ottawa/Montreal area, which is far more populous than the Vancouver/Seattle area. I find that you come to quickly to a conclusion with just off the cuff feedback from members who've contributed to your thread, without further analysis. It's obvious that there's much more going on besides than the 'Vancouver/Seattle area and the Detroit-Windsor' areas.

Yes, sorry, I forgot to mention this region as well. Clearly there is a lot of interaction between areas immediately across the border from each other. I guess what I should've said is that the Detroit-Windsor area and Vancouver/Seattle have been mentioned most frequently.