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  #261  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 5:36 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by chris11 View Post
It feels like an Atlanta subdivision with high-rises.

Um, hello - is anyone there? Really, nothing?? No comments on this???

Bueller?
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  #262  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 6:48 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Um, hello - is anyone there? Really, nothing?? No comments on this???

Bueller?
Pretty funny. I find LSE incredibly boring. I have friends who live there and I visit. I'd never live there. It IS like a subdivision - a whole lot of people and not a ton to do outside of your home.
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  #263  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 7:55 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Just to be clear to all - the subtext in the original post was that the Atlanta subdivisionesque nature of LSE is a good thing........Tom Servo, please report to the captain's ready room immediately, all other hands - battle stations!

TUP, please proclaim your true allegiance at once - do we lose you completely to the underworldly Ayn Rand and Joel Kotkin inspired hell that is the libertarian-suburban pseudophilosophical complex, or do you come back to us - to your roots - and help annihilate those dark forces??
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  #264  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 9:08 PM
chris11 chris11 is offline
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Pretty funny. I find LSE incredibly boring. I have friends who live there and I visit. I'd never live there. It IS like a subdivision - a whole lot of people and not a ton to do outside of your home.
The context I used it in was that the subdivision feel is a good thing. Its unique to the city. I lived in Destin, Florida for a while. All nice neighborhoods were gated communities. I liked it. Not as much as the city, and the 8 month heat was far beyond what I could handle. Nonetheless, I liked it. Lakeshore East is a great for people who want to live in the city, but don't want the full urban environment. I, personally, like walking out of my building and not hearing honking every 15 seconds. I like not having any hotels and tourists nearby to clutter the park. Its an opinion. Magellan clearly developed the neighborhood to be just that.
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  #265  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
Welcome to the neighborhood. . . I have a nice view of your building. . . and the park. . .

. . .
Thanks. 340 on the Park?
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  #266  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Just to be clear to all - the subtext in the original post was that the Atlanta subdivisionesque nature of LSE is a good thing........Tom Servo, please report to the captain's ready room immediately, all other hands - battle stations!

TUP, please proclaim your true allegiance at once - do we lose you completely to the underworldly Ayn Rand and Joel Kotkin inspired hell that is the libertarian-suburban pseudophilosophical complex, or do you come back to us - to your roots - and help annihilate those dark forces??
This is completely OT but I can't resist. Ayn Rand probably had more in common with Jane Jacobs than Joel Kotkin. There were a lot of guilty parties in the destruction of urbanism, but libertarians were not one of them. Libertariansm does not share a lot in common with the modern american right, yet I've noticed that people (especially on this board) seem to be increasingly thinking they are one and the same.
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  #267  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2014, 10:48 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Just to be clear to all - the subtext in the original post was that the Atlanta subdivisionesque nature of LSE is a good thing........Tom Servo, please report to the captain's ready room immediately, all other hands - battle stations!

TUP, please proclaim your true allegiance at once - do we lose you completely to the underworldly Ayn Rand and Joel Kotkin inspired hell that is the libertarian-suburban pseudophilosophical complex, or do you come back to us - to your roots - and help annihilate those dark forces??
I actually thought it was a joke.
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  #268  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2014, 5:57 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
TUP, please proclaim your true allegiance at once - do we lose you completely to the underworldly Ayn Rand and Joel Kotkin inspired hell that is the libertarian-suburban pseudophilosophical complex, or do you come back to us - to your roots - and help annihilate those dark forces??
Do you really think that Lakeshore East has anything remotely in common with 99.999% of the auto-oriented suburbia that exists in America today?

Lakeshore East is a dense (and increasingly more so), elitist, but still mixed-use community that is perfectly walkable. It is essentially a cul-de-sac for cars, yes, but for pedestrians it's still accessible through at least 2 public ROWs from the surrounding sides. In your typical suburban cul de sac, if you want access from the surrounding streets, you have to walk through totally private property (ie somebody's yard) and you will not only get dogs barking, but the cops called on you.

Apples and oranges.
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  #269  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2014, 6:54 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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LSE is dense for sure, but the problem is that there's not tons of amenities outside of your own building. That's my main problem with it. I think it will be different in 10 years, I hope - if more food places, social types of places, etc opened then it would be a lot better. I live where I do because I can walk outside and be presented with tons of different options for stuff. If I didn't want that, I'd live in the suburbs or a less dense, very sleepy neighborhood.

There's over 10,000 people (probably more like 15,000 these days) living in Lakeshore East and I'd put a lot of money on there only being 10-15 food places in the entire area. Maybe 5 or less bars and I think there's maybe 2 or 3markets, and a CVS. It's grossly under represented with the service industry there. Go to an area like Chinatown. It probably has the same population yet most likely over 125 or 150 food places, numerous markets, etc.

A point of urban living is to have many amenities around you - not to just clusterfuck everyone in the same area and have not a lot to do in the immediate vicinity.
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  #270  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2014, 7:08 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
LSE is dense for sure, but the problem is that there's not tons of amenities outside of your own building. That's my main problem with it. I think it will be different in 10 years, I hope - if more food places, social types of places, etc opened then it would be a lot better. I live where I do because I can walk outside and be presented with tons of different options for stuff. If I didn't want that, I'd live in the suburbs or a less dense, very sleepy neighborhood.

There's over 10,000 people (probably more like 15,000 these days) living in Lakeshore East and I'd put a lot of money on there only being 10-15 food places in the entire area. Maybe 5 or less bars and I think there's maybe 2 or 3markets, and a CVS. It's grossly under represented with the service industry there. Go to an area like Chinatown. It probably has the same population yet most likely over 125 or 150 food places, numerous markets, etc.

A point of urban living is to have many amenities around you - not to just clusterfuck everyone in the same area and have not a lot to do in the immediate vicinity.
Totally fair criticism here, but also quite different from the argument that LSE is some sort of suburban dystopia or whatever people are saying. To say something like that suggests that one just hasn't been out in the burbs for a while. There is nothing remotely on the same planet as LSE in suburban America.

I do agree that LSE's developers have erred a bit by not putting in more retail space, an error that at this point will be difficult to rectify. 375 E Wacker could perhaps have some retail space at the park level, and perhaps some retail can go into the vacant lot at the northeast portion of the park, but there really isn't much other space for it.
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  #271  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 12:25 AM
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you people are annoying i want to hear about this building xD
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  #272  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 4:35 AM
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I don't think you guys understand how retail works... Chinatown supports hundreds of businesses because of the thousands of Chicagoans, suburbanites and tourists who flock there every day.

Even 10,000 residents can't support very many businesses on their own without outside people coming into the community. Lakeshore East, even with massive density, can't really have more than the handful of neighborhood businesses it already has , unless they find a way to welcome outsiders into the community and lose that quiet secluded feeling.
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  #273  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 5:12 AM
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^Another thing LSE has going against it is that it's not on the way to anything, so people don't even wander through it. Maggie Daley Park might increase the foot traffic around there but only so much is going to penetrate past Randolph. Unless LSD was buried and the whole area was integrated with the waterfront more, it's probably always going to, at best, feel like the area around the Sears tower always felt.
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  #274  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 12:44 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
I don't think you guys understand how retail works... Chinatown supports hundreds of businesses because of the thousands of Chicagoans, suburbanites and tourists who flock there every day.

Even 10,000 residents can't support very many businesses on their own without outside people coming into the community. Lakeshore East, even with massive density, can't really have more than the handful of neighborhood businesses it already has , unless they find a way to welcome outsiders into the community and lose that quiet secluded feeling.
Chinatown was one example. I could have easily used something like Roscoe Village which still has more business density and yet residents and tourists do not flock there for much of anything. And while people do go to Chinatown, it's not like it's in droves.

I'm sorry, but it's complete bullshit to think that 10,000-15,000 residents where the median rent is at least $1900/month (and condo prices are pretty high) can't support more than 10-15 food places total. Not to mention that there are hotels right around there that are not exactly cheap like the Radisson Blu and Fairmont.
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Last edited by marothisu; Aug 17, 2014 at 1:06 PM.
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  #275  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 5:21 PM
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Not true at all. Roscoe Village has plenty of bars and restaurants that are generally popular and attract people from all over the north side.

Lakeshore East is designed to keep people out with level changes, somewhat hidden entrances, very little on-street or off-street public parking, no rail access, etc. The side effect of keeping non-residents out is that you can't support very many businesses.

Some of it is cultural, too - the secluded feeling and high costs of Lakeshore East, Central Station, etc attract lots of wealthy older people who don't go to bars and restaurants at the same rate as their younger counterparts. We have some LSE residents here... let them chime in.
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  #276  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 6:46 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Not true at all. Roscoe Village has plenty of bars and restaurants that are generally popular and attract people from all over the north side.
I could bring up numerous other neighborhoods in the same thing. Go to Lincoln Square and that area. Same thing.

What's your point anyway? LSE is right near shit loads of hotels and shit loads of residents. To think that it couldn't handle more restaurants, bars, etc there is complete and utter bullshit. You have 10K-15K residents right there, plus an 836 room Fairmont Hotel, 661 room Swissotel, 334 room Radisson Blu hotel, and not to mention a bunch of other hotels pretty close by. Oh, then there's all the residents of the rest of the Loop, South Loop, Near North Side, etc who like to travel for good food and bars. If me and my neighbors are traveling to Roscoe Village for the same stuff, there's no reason to not put more of this in LSE.

Even if 50% of the residents love to partially be excluded, you have thousands of hotel rooms in the general area and 99% of these people are not cooking at home - they're going out to eat every night.
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  #277  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2014, 10:38 PM
FlashingLights FlashingLights is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Totally fair criticism here, but also quite different from the argument that LSE is some sort of suburban dystopia or whatever people are saying. To say something like that suggests that one just hasn't been out in the burbs for a while. There is nothing remotely on the same planet as LSE in suburban America.

I do agree that LSE's developers have erred a bit by not putting in more retail space, an error that at this point will be difficult to rectify. 375 E Wacker could perhaps have some retail space at the park level, and perhaps some retail can go into the vacant lot at the northeast portion of the park, but there really isn't much other space for it.
It feels like an artificial pre planned neighborhood which is ver suburban esque in concept. I don't think I could ever live there. Despite River North being hated on for being beige condo heaven it at least feels like a natural flow of urban space continuing from the loop. There is no easy access to get to LSE. I have even asked people in the city who have lived in Chicago their entire life South Siders / West Siders if they knew about the Marianos there. No one even knows it exists due to how cut off it is and the multi platforms. The only way I am able even explain what it is to people is by saying the area near Aqua. Even then a lot of them know Aqua exists but not of the rest of LSE. This could also be related to LSE taking over the spot of #2/3 wealthiest neighborhoods in Chicago. It's so unaffordable no one has an reason to go there even if there were things to do there. Ohh wait there is nothing to do there anyway.

LSE is becoming a neighborhood were wealthy out of towners buy a condo to live close to the loop that have no actual understanding of the Chicago neighborhoods.
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  #278  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2014, 2:22 AM
thewaterman11 thewaterman11 is offline
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
What's your point anyway? LSE is right near shit loads of hotels and shit loads of residents. To think that it couldn't handle more restaurants, bars, etc there is complete and utter bullshit. You have 10K-15K residents right there, plus an 836 room Fairmont Hotel, 661 room Swissotel, 334 room Radisson Blu hotel, and not to mention a bunch of other hotels pretty close by. Oh, then there's all the residents of the rest of the Loop, South Loop, Near North Side, etc who like to travel for good food and bars. If me and my neighbors are traveling to Roscoe Village for the same stuff, there's no reason to not put more of this in LSE.
I've stayed at the Fairmont before and it's not especially pedestrian-friendly to access LSE from the hotel. Sure, Aqua's utility sidestreet provides access to the park below, but I have to cross a street where I saw, on four occasions in two days, taxi drivers engaged in cursing matches with pedestrians (in a marked crosswalk!), walk down a utility road and go down several floors of stairs. This may not be physically difficult, but for out-of-towners, it's not exactly an attractive way to access a park. And that's if they know how to get to the park. The Fairmont better marked the pedway and it's seven thousand Dunkin' Donuts than the wonderful little park less than a block away. And it's simple to see why; unlike the park, there is direct access from the hotel to the Dunkin' Donuts. I would assume this is the same at the Radisson and Swissotel. This money may surround LSE, but there are so many other options for out-of-towners to spend it and lack of access exacerbates the lack of incentive to go there.
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  #279  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2014, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Um, hello - is anyone there? Really, nothing?? No comments on this???

Bueller?
SEE BELOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris11 View Post
The context I used it in was that the subdivision feel is a good thing. Its unique to the city. I lived in Destin, Florida for a while. All nice neighborhoods were gated communities. I liked it. Not as much as the city, and the 8 month heat was far beyond what I could handle. Nonetheless, I liked it. Lakeshore East is a great for people who want to live in the city, but don't want the full urban environment. I, personally, like walking out of my building and not hearing honking every 15 seconds. I like not having any hotels and tourists nearby to clutter the park. Its an opinion. Magellan clearly developed the neighborhood to be just that.


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Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
This is completely OT but I can't resist. Ayn Rand probably had more in common with Jane Jacobs than Joel Kotkin. There were a lot of guilty parties in the destruction of urbanism, but libertarians were not one of them. Libertariansm does not share a lot in common with the modern american right, yet I've noticed that people (especially on this board) seem to be increasingly thinking they are one and the same.
Definitely O/T, but let's say someone buys a huge chunk of prime real estate next to a subway stop and wants to build a thousand-car garage there. What's the libertarian response?
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  #280  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2014, 12:18 PM
Kenmore Kenmore is offline
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Do you really think that Lakeshore East has anything remotely in common with 99.999% of the auto-oriented suburbia that exists in America today?
i suspect most residents who live there full-time drive for all their basic shopping needs and spend nearly as much time in their cars as a typical suburbanite.
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