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  #15381  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 12:37 AM
untitledreality untitledreality is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
As far as the southside goes, it will happen someday, but the question is how soon.
You can already see Kenwood coming on strong with Grand Boulevard dragging alongside, but as you said, both still have a ways to go till they form a trifecta with HP as a true catalyst for the South lakefront to blossom again.

One south side neighborhood that I havent seen mentioned much that I think has outstanding potential is South Shore. For whatever reason this area has retained the vast majority of its building stock, commercial streets and density while nearby hood floundered and vanished long ago. Unobstructed connection to the lake, Jackson Park, South Shore CC and Rainbow Beach, heavy rail, new Jeffery BRT, LSD access, Skyway access... what exactly is missing here?
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  #15382  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 12:42 AM
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  #15383  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
I don't doubt there were white starving artists living in Logan Square 10 years ago, but I do doubt that the area was considered any more promising than Humbolt Park or Bronzeville is now.
Erm, no. More than 10 years ago, Lula Cafe was already open, the 35th ward's vicious Rey vs. Vilma battle was already in Round 2, and Ray Suarez was already writing *in the past tense* about the boulevards' gentrification. ("The Old Neighborhood," page 215: "By the mid-1980s, the area's well-built graystones, picturesque boulevards, and good transit links to downtown had those white buyers priced out of the lakefront market taking a look.") Heck, when I moved from Ukrainian Village to Wicker Park in 2002, I already felt like I was behind the times since a solid plurality of my friends had already moved up to Logan Square.

Logan Square never declined into quite the same concentrated poverty that Bronzeville or even parts of Uptown developed, much less Garfield Park or Lawndale. In fact, some institutions serving the European-immigrant middle class remained -- like the Norwegian church on the square or the Olsons' Viking Ski Shop on Fullerton. It had the workings of a fine, if rough around the edges, urban neighborhood: corner groceries, bars, transit, skyline views, relatively law-abiding neighbors, superb housing (some in move-in condition), ready access to restaurants and friends in adjacent neighborhoods. Early gentrifiers there were taking a chance, but not really a huge one; by contrast, it takes a really adventurous person to move to a bombed-out neighborhood clear across town.

In any case, gentrification is a really complicated topic in general; even when entire books have been written about single neighborhoods, like "Neo-Bohemia" about Wicker Park, they don't do the topic full justice.
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  #15384  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 2:57 AM
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"Young affluent professionals have grabbed up the Victorian houses along Logan Boulevard, making this area perhaps the 'hottest' real estate in the city outside the Lakefront."
--David K. Fremon in the chapter on the 33rd ward in Chicago Politics Ward by Ward, 1988

Granted, off the boulevards themselves there has only been significant investment recently, and I don't think anyone questions that Logan Square has come a very long way over the past 10 years... but it's not like that came out of nowhere.

In the same chapter: "The arts flourish here, albeit in unusual forms."

Last edited by VivaLFuego; Apr 13, 2012 at 3:08 AM.
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  #15385  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 3:46 AM
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What we have to keep in mind, and no one has addressed this here, is that gentrification, though it sucks for the individual is what keeps the city alive and social services available to the poor. So while one in poverty may have lost his or her house, he or she still gained as city-wide values rose and he or she now living further west is in a better neighborhood. And we do see increasing interest in better schools and police in poor neighborhoods. The problem is, can these end cyclical poverty and, moreover, is it the responsibility of the urbanist to respond to these problems because he or she comes to heads with it in the immanent gentrification of a growing city? Can he or she simply ignore these massive problems inherent in gentrification for someone else? I like to think that good development is that which is economically diverse. One of the benefits of a great urban vision is that the wealthy and poor are all on the same level as they navigate the streets by foot, mingling and passing as they do so. The only way to achieve this is by creating a comprehensive program of compensation for those that lose their homes and offering affordable housing in all new developments. Problems of course arise as the now gentrifying slums were undesirable in the first place because of issues like crime and safety. How do we separate the law abiding yet disadvantaged citizen from the drug dealer?

That was my rant / questioning on gentrification, I hope you've enjoyed.
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  #15386  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 4:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledreality View Post
...

One south side neighborhood that I havent seen mentioned much that I think has outstanding potential is South Shore. For whatever reason this area has retained the vast majority of its building stock, commercial streets and density while nearby hood floundered and vanished long ago. Unobstructed connection to the lake, Jackson Park, South Shore CC and Rainbow Beach, heavy rail, new Jeffery BRT, LSD access, Skyway access... what exactly is missing here?
faster access to the loop and/or jobs
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  #15387  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 1:57 PM
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It only takes 30 to 35 minutes to get to the Loop from South Shore on the Metra. Its just very annoying that it only runs every hour. Driving it takes about 15 minutes. There are plenty of buses that drop you off right on Michigan Av and State St. But this area is a retail desert, no stores in sight. But whats going on in Hyde Park and the whole Lakeside thing is promising.
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  #15388  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 2:27 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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  #15389  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 2:59 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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How difficult would it be to build a single story retail building or bigger where the plaza is for the Logan Blue line? I'm thinking of the area next to the furniture store where there is a huge blank wall. It would be awesome if there was a flatiron type building there instead of a black wall.

Also the concrete plasa there looks pretty bad. I know they want to improve it but, I dont see anyone using it as a plasa when there is the grassy square right next to it. Is it possible to build on that concrete plasa easily like the apple store did. Or how about building a station house there like at north/clybourn?
I think it would be better for the area to have more street retail or apartments next to the subway. There is plenty of park space in that area so I don't think those little plasa would be missed.
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  #15390  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 4:18 PM
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Wasn't there a mid-rise proposal before the bust for LS, right on the square, perhaps the parcel you're describing?
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  #15391  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 5:23 PM
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migueltorres migueltorres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
faster access to the loop and/or jobs
I lived in the South Shore neighborhood from 2002-2010. It's a beautiful neighborhood with great access to the lake, golf courses and it has quick access to the loop via express buses. The only thing that was missing for me in that neighborhood is more/diverse retail. The 71st retail strip is very run down but it has a lot of potential. I hope that horrible strip mall gets redevelop someday. I left because I felt I was living in a suburb. I had to drive or take a bus to pretty much do anything but access the lakefront path. I moved to the west loop and got rid of my car.

Best turkey burgers I've ever had at That's-a-Burger though, even if I had to order them through a bullet-proof counter
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  #15392  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 5:31 PM
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I had some time to kill between a few meetings today and I snapped a few shots.

WMS Gaming on Roscoe, just west of the River:



The long-stalled development at Belmont and Rockwell had some activity, though not much. What they were doing is beyond me:

Here's the original rendering I found of the above project on zillow for reference:


Noah Properties 3 Six Flat project on Belmont just west of Western. This builder is increasingly growing on me. I think they strike a nice balance between traditional and modern:



This project @ Armitage and St. Louis surprised me:


After seeing this sign I was less excited. Bickerdike is like the Peter Holsten of Latin neighborhoods. All they do is suck off the public teat and build heavily subsidized, TIF financed type of projects. Anyway I found the rendering on curbed:

I later saw that they were also associated with a project at North and Washtenaw not too far east of the park. I was unable to snap a photo but work was well underway. The sign said North & Talman phase III, even though that isn't the corner where the activity was. This was the only grainy image I was able to find which I snipped out of this PDF (http://www.cityofchicago.org/content...hTalmanCDC.pdf) which has a lot of info about the project:

Whatever, their projects have nice urban design and spruce up the area even if they aren't market rate projects.

....Ya I get around.

Last edited by Buckman821; Apr 13, 2012 at 5:50 PM. Reason: added a location
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  #15393  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by migueltorres View Post
I left because I felt I was living in a suburb...

Best turkey burgers I've ever had at That's-a-Burger though, even if I had to order them through a bullet-proof counter
Sounds like the worst of the city and the suburbs to me, but maybe it will be redeveloped some day.

I've always felt that the strange and sudden drop off south of the loop is crazy and, especially from the top of the sears, it looks ridiculous. We need to get more serious about building up the Sloop as a real alternative to River North (ie, tell AMLI to add more density and retail to their newest property). Eventually, we may even see something like the Park Michigan (to balance out the skyline behind Grant Park) or businesses moving south of Congress. South of congress seems more if not just as convenient as crossing a river from the major train artery stops (Oglvie, Union etc.).

If this happens, Hyde Park will no longer be a U of C fueled oasis of gentrification on the south side and we may see other neighborhoods follow suit as real urbanism (or at least gentrification/ improvements) spreads south and north from these two neighborhoods.
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  #15394  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
I had some time to kill between a few meetings today and I snapped a few shots.

WMS Gaming:

This, to me, is proof that SCB can do some pretty good work. It is also LEED Platinum (though the LEED system is kind of a scam). Here is a link to SCB's website with some other pics of the project. They done some other good small scale projects like this one as well as their competition entry for the flagship McDonald's which is SOOOO much better than the one that got built.
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  #15395  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 5:58 PM
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Lets review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Lol, this whole line again?


I don't doubt there were white starving artists living in Logan Square 10 years ago, but I do doubt that the area was considered any more promising than Humbolt Park or Bronzeville is now.
Now here is your original quote to which my response and the response of other forumers was directed I wanted to repost this before it gets lost in the smokescreen you will lay down in your furious attempt to illustrate that you couldn't possibly be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
10 years ago no one would have imagined that Logan Square would be anything but a heavily hispanic, working class, area.
So which past is accurate 1. That LS was never conceived as anything but a "heavily hispanic, working class, area." or 2. promising? It cannot be both.

Multiple forumers have attested or illustrated evidence that your statement above is wrong. It won't matter because you will:

1. deny the evidence in favor of your incontrovertible opinion;
2. change the argument or the terms of the argument in an attempt to deny that you are in error.

We all just witnessed this tact in your furious attempts at reality denial in the Milwaukee-Chicago thread to no avail. Its seems in your mind historical fact or evidence are irrelevant only your opinion counts as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
Hell, you just said you moved to Uptown then. Did you think Uptown had similar potential? If so, then you are 50/50 on your predictions because Logan Square has taken off while Uptown has continued to run in circles and develop in fits and starts.
No. I moved to Uptown for a number of reasons none of which where tied to speculation on the state of the future real estate market. But nice way to jump to conclusions. See number 2 above.

If you must now why I chose UT vs LS back in 1998 it really could be written that the apt chose me. I was not making much money 10/hr at the time and I found a cheap apt for about 400/month that allowed me to have my dogs. That combination happened to be in UT not LS. Pure chance; not as you attempt to suggest a comment on my future expectation of real estate values ( see #2 above)





Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
Even so, we see the exact same "signs" you claim to have seen in Logan Square 10 years ago in places like Pilsen, Bridgeport, and Bronzeville right now. I am guess than any of those three areas might take off, but any combination of them may or may not end up doing so. Fact is I have many friends who are looking at places in those areas and moving there, so how is what I'm saying absurd? I'm not claiming Logan Square was Lawndale 10 years ago.
No you claimed originally :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
10 years ago no one would have imagined that Logan Square would be anything but a heavily hispanic, working class, area.
But now you have changed that to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
I'm claiming it was like Humbolt Park or Pilsen (away from UIC) or Bridgeport or Bronzeville are now. It was just another affordable neighborhood with small elements of the upper classes moving in to take advantage of the prices.[
See #2 above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
There was no way of telling it would be the next "big thing" or it would have developed in the 1990's and not the 2000's. In other words, if it was so obviously the next big thing, then why didn't it develop 20 years ago instead of over the last 10?
Because real estate markets are not academic abstractions that change immediately to a change in conditions. Real estate markets have a notorious amount of friction. Neighborhood transformations take time due to the underlying nature of the goods involved. Finite demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
Finally, I think you and I have different definitions of what Logan Square is. I think you are imagining the California and Western Stops to be a true part of Logan Square. Those are the fringes in my opinion and often more akin to Bucktown or Wicker than Logan. Logan Square to me applies to the immediate surroundings of the square itself (maybe a 5 block radius) and everything South along the bolevards to Palmer. These areas were certainly NOT gentrifying 10 years ago (unless you count a few starving artists here and there as gentrification) as they are just beginning to gentrify now. I would know as I live there and am watching the transformation. The heart of Logan Square is not the wasteland to the South along Milwaukee, it is the Square itself and Milwaukee North to Diversey. Everything North of the square is still heavily dominated by hispanics and has almost nothing in the way of the businesses you would associate with gentrification. However, especially over the past 6 months, these buisinesses have begun creeping north from their original colony around Longman and Eagle and setting up along Milwaukee as well. But none of that was there 10 years ago because it's just getting there now. So no, I highly doubt you were standing outside of a bodega at Milwaukee and Diversey in 2000 saying "gee this is a hot neighborhood" because the area was kinda a shit hole then and is just starting to change in earnest now. I don't doubt that you might have been Western and Milwaukee and said "I bet this will be a nice area some day", but that's a different story.
Boy you like to make presumptions. In 1994 I took a gun off a guy at the intersection of Western / Armitage who pulled on me...mere blocks from Milw and Ashland.

And yes I used to go to burrito stands along Milw between fullerton and Diversey as early as the 2000's...you are right I didn't say "gee this is a hot neighborhood" ( see #2 above once again) I said to myself.."this could be a pretty cool neighborhood ..."


and the coup de grace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman
Again, I can find you quotes like this about almost any border line neighborhood. Hell, you know how long people have been saying this about Rogers Park and Uptown? The fact is, though it was obvious Logan Square would eventually redevelop given on going urban trends, it was not obvious that it was the next "anointed one". Period.

I could say the exact same thing these writers said about Logan about Bronzeville, Pilsen, Bridgeport, or Humbolt Park now, but still have no idea which areas will actually develop and which will have to wait 25 more years. In fact, I know I've seen similar quotes to the one posted by Paytonc that were written about Garfield Park ten years ago and we all know how that turned out.

You are all subjecting this to confirmation bias. You are going back and saying "one person said people were buying homes along the bolevard therefore obviously Logan Square was the next big thing!" when that means absolutely nothing because people have said the exact same thing about all sorts of neighborhoods that haven't gone the same route as the square.

Finally my point still stands that almost everything that has developed in terms of businesses in the Square has happened over the past 10 years. Lula was probably the first about 10 years ago while most didn't open until the last 5-6 years and they are just now venturing north of the Square itself.


I'm not sure how you are all missing my point so badly. I haven't once said Logan Square had 0 yuppies in it 10 years ago. I haven't once said not a single person would dared to suggest that the Square had a bright future. I'm saying that it was FAR from obvious that it would be the next hot neighborhood. It was another mediocre area with potential just like the half dozen other areas I've referenced. No one could have predicted how it would take off after 2000 or it would have taken off before 2000 because people would have just poured money into it in the 1990's if it was such a sure bet. Finnally there was NO signifigant demographic change in Logan Square between the 1990 and 2000 census. In 2000 the area was still 65% hispanic. It was 66% hispanic in 1990. I'm not buying there was some signifigant demographic shift underway when there was almost no change in the demographic breakdown of the area in the 1990's. The shift did not begin in earnest until after 2000.

Yes we are all missing the boat. You of course have the only boat. See #1 and #2 above. Case closed
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  #15396  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 6:10 PM
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Can we create a new thread entitled "Chicago: Silly Arguments" where people can duke these issues out for as long as they want with essay entries for posts? That way it wouldn't muck up the Gen Dev thread and people who just want to follow developments would be able to do so more easily. Just an idea.
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  #15397  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
I had some time to kill between a few meetings today and I snapped a few shots.

Noah Properties 3 Six Flat project on Belmont just west of Western. This builder is increasingly growing on me. I think they strike a nice balance between traditional and modern:


I'm liking this archetype of 6-flat that's been popping up throughout the city. Ones I have seen on Ashland and Western with glass exposing the stairway are particularly nice (simple, honest, expressive). More of these and less of the historic caricatures.
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  #15398  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 6:13 PM
lawfin lawfin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
Can we create a new thread entitled "Chicago: Silly Arguments" where people can duke these issues out for as long as they want with essay entries for posts? That way it wouldn't muck up the Gen Dev thread and people who just want to follow developments would be able to do so more easily. Just an idea.
Pretty funny...like that
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  #15399  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 6:13 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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  #15400  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
^^^ Yawn.

You are always doing this. You look for one statement that is clearly hyperbolic in the context of what I'm saying and then extrapolate it into some definative master statement about some concrete reality. No, I did not say "years ago no one would have imagined that Logan Square would be anything but a heavily hispanic, working class, area. 10 years later it is one of the hottest hoods in the city." That is PART of what I said and was part of a much larger context that was clearly not meant to be taken as some concrete statement on it's own. What I ACTUALLY said was:

"However, don't forget that things can change extremely quickly after just slight demographic shifts. 10 years ago no one would have imagined that Logan Square would be anything but a heavily hispanic, working class, area. 10 years later it is one of the hottest hoods in the city. Right now we are seeing even bigger sea change shifts on the south side as the city continues to tear down projects and we are continuing to see "black flight" to the suburbs. This could open the doors to a rapid swing in the economic prospects of those areas. Hell, Pilsen/Littly Italy has already demonstrated rapid gentrification can happen on the south side. That area went from terrible to great in probably 15-20 years time. How do we know that won't continue into the Western reaches of Pilsen and then march right on into Lawndale over the next 20 years?"

I was clearly using that as a brief example of what I was saying (which I have continued to say). Obivously I did not mean to say there was nothing but hispanics in the area. I even said in the sentance before the one you are nit picking, that demographic shifts can rapidly cause an area to gentrify. So clearly I was talking about demographic changes.

So answer this question:

Was I or was I not making that statement that "10 years ago no one would have imagined that Logan Square would be anything but a heavily hispanic, working class, area." in the context of discussing the effects of demographic shifts in a neighborhood?

The answer is yes.

Was Logan Square any different demographically in 2000 than in 1990?

The answer is NO.

Therefore was the statement that I made really that crazy when taken IN CONTEXT? No, because it was fucking true. I obviously didn't mean for that sentance to be taken outside the context of discussing demographic change and it makes sense only in that context. Yes it was extremely generalized and yes I'm sure some people saw potential, but 99% of people didn't or they would have already moved into the area by 2000. I never said anything about potential. Additionally, you are acting as if I were saying "everyone thought it would be hispanic and working class forever" when its pretty clear that I was talking about what it would be like in only 10 years, not what it would be like for all eternity.
See #1 & #2
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