The Changing Face Of Toronto

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Similarly, in Toronto, there has been all kinds of clownish leadership like Rob Ford, all kinds of bizarre decisionmaking, like building subways in cornfields while ignoring transit in the core, but Toronto is a massive, unabashed, almost unparalleled success story, because it's a gigantic immigrant mecca. It's basically impossible to F up a metro getting like 100k+ skilled immigrants every year. There's really nothing to "learn" from Toronto (or NYC, or other successful cities).

Which cornfields are served by subways? The cornfield of York University, the third largest university in Canada, and one of the biggest transit hubs in the GTA? The cornfield of Vaughan, which had 306,233 people in 2016?

Vaughan is in York Region, not Toronto. Toronto paid 904 million extend the subway to York U. Then York Region paid another $604 million for a further extension into Vaughan. That's in addition to the $100 million it spends each year for the operations of York Region Transit.

Makes a whole lot more sense than Nassau County getting upset at the MTA for demanding more than a $9 million annual contribution for the operations of the Long Island Bus (now Nassau Inter-County Express). And now the county only provides $4 million funding annually to NICE. I'll take York Region's leadership and decision making over Nassau County's anyday.

Agency  Riders_08  Riders_15  Change
YRT     24,303.0k  30,131.4k  +24.0%
NICE    32,440.5k  27,535.5k  -15.1%

[lrt's friend]

When comparing Montreal and Toronto, you have to consider both cities’ roots. Montreal was and still is based on a Latin joie de vivre society; while Toronto was based on a staid Anglo-Saxon protestant and even monarchist society that brought us such things as the LCBO (a child of prohibition) and the King’s Highway System (look at any Ontario Highway sign). Some of these things have obviously faded but the bones of each city are based on these fundamental differences.

[chris08876]

But for those who live in Toronto.... would you say that the Manhattanization of Toronto has been a good thing for the city culture or is it pushing it towards a side that discourages immigration and might deter those who want to move there (prices I'm leading up too), along with changing the "feel" of the city.

Sometimes in my area, you'll hear people say that NY is not the same NY that it was in the 80's or 90's. I wonder if that same feeling with regards to the "city culture" will apply to Toronto as it has been booming, becoming increasingly expensive, and in essence, a Manhattanization effect on various neighborhoods. Do you feel that way or do you see the general perception apply to others? Just curious about it. As I don't live in Toronto, wanted to get a query about this topic.

I'm really curious about the perception that this boom has instilled in residents.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Exactly! Those are the areas I always see featured on Queer as Folk. As a side note, I really look forward most to experiencing the diverse ethnic neighborhoods Toronto apparently has aplenty.

Then again, how is this any different than so many NA major cities? Downtowns are always sort of lame...sure, they're vibrant in terms of street activity and retail, but I usually find the best parts of any city in its local neighborhoods. Boxy corporate towers, banks and Panera Bread has never been particularly compelling.

Toronto will absolutely disappoint you architecturally, it probably has the least beautiful central core of all the major Great Lakes cities. The underwhelming townhomes outside the CBD don't really make up for it. There is really no sense of grandeur, the downtown grid is a mess. It was never designed to be a grand large city and never had any beautification movement in the way cities like Chicago, DC, Cleveland, Detroit or even Denver did and it shows. There are plenty of reasons to love Toronto but architecture or history just aren't one of them. Buffalo has better historical bones, so does Milwaukee.

[Torontopia]

I have another video, this one is of the new Chanel store which moved to Yorkville

• Video Link[/QUOTE]

[Torontopia]

Here is one of Yorkdale, which is really a very nice mall! I didn't get to film as much as I wanted because I got busted by security! NO FILMING IN YORKDALE! DAMN!

• Video Link[/QUOTE]

[Torontopia]

Yorkdale is trying to be Paris!
• Video Link[/QUOTE]

[softee]

Originally Posted by The North One

Toronto will absolutely disappoint you architecturally, it probably has the least beautiful central core of all the major Great Lakes cities. The underwhelming townhomes outside the CBD don't really make up for it. There is really no sense of grandeur, the downtown grid is a mess. It was never designed to be a grand large city and never had any beautification movement in the way cities like Chicago, DC, Cleveland, Detroit or even Denver did and it shows. There are plenty of reasons to love Toronto but architecture or history just aren't one of them. Buffalo has better historical bones, so does Milwaukee.

If we're talking residential architecture I'm not sure I agree. Try dropping a pin on a residential neighbourhood in the inner core of all the major Great Lakes cities and see how Toronto looks compared to them. Compared to the other Great Lakes cities (except Chicago), Toronto's core neighbourhoods are denser, predominately brick construction circa the late 19th or early 20th century with lots of attached housing and lots of big street trees. Many of Toronto's inner core residential neighbourhoods are very attractive, IMO. Toronto also has its own unique vernacular called the bay and gable style which is found in both rowhouses and detached homes. Cabbagetown and the Annex may among the best looking neighbourhoods of any city on the Great Lakes.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The point is that Toronto isn't doing something different than other metros. It happens to be booming because it gets a crapload of skilled immigrants. If Cleveland got the same level of annual immigration, it would be largely the same.

I think we on SSP are WAY too eager to ascribe credit or blame to cities for macro issues. Take NYC. NYC isn't "better run" or "more progressive" than in the horrible 1970's. The city makes all kinds of idiotic and self-defeating decisions. Bill DeBlasio isn't a better mayor than Ted Lindsay. The difference is that immigration boomed, the financial industry soared, and there was a return to urbanity, which obviously benefits North America's most urban city.

Similarly, in Toronto, there has been all kinds of clownish leadership like Rob Ford, all kinds of bizarre decisionmaking, like building subways in cornfields while ignoring transit in the core, but Toronto is a massive, unabashed, almost unparalleled success story, because it's a gigantic immigrant mecca. It's basically impossible to F up a metro getting like 100k+ skilled immigrants every year. There's really nothing to "learn" from Toronto (or NYC, or other successful cities).

But it clearly can't be as simplistic as just opening the doors to attract and allow massive immigration being able to boost the growth of any city, Toronto or NYC style. Otherwise, every city struggling to grow would do it if it were such a silver bullet, and nationwide, there would be tons of economically depressed areas such as the Rust belt cities that would be clamoring for and recruiting for skilled immigrants all around, and opting for population growth by international growth (rather than domestic migration) would be super popular and desired by these cities' leaders and citizens and obviously that's not what we see in these places or struggling cities nationwide.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Doady

Which cornfields are served by subways? The cornfield of York University, the third largest university in Canada, and one of the biggest transit hubs in the GTA? The cornfield of Vaughan, which had 306,233 people in 2016?

Vaughan is in York Region, not Toronto. Toronto paid 904 million extend the subway to York U. Then York Region paid another $604 million for a further extension into Vaughan. That's in addition to the $100 million it spends each year for the operations of York Region Transit.

Makes a whole lot more sense than Nassau County getting upset at the MTA for demanding more than a $9 million annual contribution for the operations of the Long Island Bus (now Nassau Inter-County Express). And now the county only provides $4 million funding annually to NICE. I'll take York Region's leadership and decision making over Nassau County's anyday.

Agency  Riders_08  Riders_15  Change
YRT     24,303.0k  30,131.4k  +24.0%
NICE    32,440.5k  27,535.5k  -15.1%

Perhaps he/she was also thinking about the Scarborough subway which got some press outside of Toronto recently for being an example of an expensive "subway to nowhere", but that part of the city, Scarborough, has been part of Toronto for a while and not been cornfields for a rather long time.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

I keep wanting to go to Montreal...

You went all the way from the U.S. South to Toronto as a tourist, but not Montreal?!?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

But it clearly can't be as simplistic as just opening the doors to attract and allow massive immigration being able to boost the growth of any city, Toronto or NYC style. Otherwise, every city struggling to grow would do it if it were such a silver bullet, and nationwide, there would be tons of economically depressed areas such as the Rust belt cities that would be clamoring for and recruiting for skilled immigrants all around, and opting for population growth by international growth (rather than domestic migration) would be super popular and desired by these cities' leaders and citizens and obviously that's not what we see in these places or struggling cities nationwide.

Nations, not cities, control immigration policy, so I'm not sure of your point. Cleveland cannot unilaterally decide to have Canada's immigration system.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Doady

Which cornfields are served by subways? The cornfield of York University, the third largest university in Canada, and one of the biggest transit hubs in the GTA? The cornfield of Vaughan, which had 306,233 people in 2016?

Vaughn is a sparse, sprawled outer suburb, and the subway basically ends up in an undeveloped wasteland, that might as well be a cornfield.

I think it's reasonable to say that Toronto has built subways exactly where one shouldn't build subways, while doing nothing where subways are desperately needed. Yet the TTC has fantastic ridership and Toronto is ridiculously successful. That's the point. You couldn't F up Toronto no matter how hard you tried. I mean, Rob Ford.

Originally Posted by Doady

Makes a whole lot more sense than Nassau County getting upset at the MTA for demanding more than a $9 million annual contribution for the operations of the Long Island Bus (now Nassau Inter-County Express).

I have no idea what any of this means. What does an obscure funding dispute for a minor bus route on Long Island have to do with Toronto building subways in exurban sprawl?

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Vaughn is a sparse, sprawled outer suburb, and the subway basically ends up in an undeveloped wasteland, that might as well be a cornfield.

I think it's reasonable to say that Toronto has built subways exactly where one shouldn't build subways, while doing nothing where subways are desperately needed. Yet the TTC has fantastic ridership and Toronto is ridiculously successful. That's the point. You couldn't F up Toronto no matter how hard you tried. I mean, Rob Ford.

Vaughan is not "undeveloped." It has over 300,000 people.

Toronto's transit system is wrong but it has high ridership? Doesn't make sense.

Saying Toronto is automatically successful at everything is already incorrect, but to go further attribute that all to immigration is just ridiculous.

I have no idea what any of this means. What does an obscure funding dispute for a minor bus route on Long Island have to do with Toronto building subways in exurban sprawl?

Because York Region is not Toronto, same way Nassau County is not New York City. York Region is the one who pushed for and funded the subway to Vaughan, not Toronto. The subway extension was originally just to Steeles.

The transit politics of York Region is representative of Toronto as much as the transit politics in Nassau County is of New York City. And personally I find transit politics of York Region to be much less objectionable than the transit politics of Nassau County. I'm not sure why you are so opposed to a suburban municipality spending their own money on improving public transit.

If transit in Canadian cities are automatically hugely successful no matter what, thanks to immigration, then what is the point criticizing at all? Vaughan, Downtown Toronto, Holland Marsh, it will be the same transit ridership no matter what, thanks to the immigrants.

[nito]

I believe Crawford was highlighting the peculiar priorities that Toronto places on transport projects. Vaughan might have a population of 300,000, but it also has a low population density of 1,000 per sq km. Even if there is high utilisation of the extension, that only compounds the congestion on the core network that needs relief.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by chris08876

But for those who live in Toronto.... would you say that the Manhattanization of Toronto has been a good thing for the city culture or is it pushing it towards a side that discourages immigration and might deter those who want to move there (prices I'm leading up too), along with changing the "feel" of the city.

Sometimes in my area, you'll hear people say that NY is not the same NY that it was in the 80's or 90's. I wonder if that same feeling with regards to the "city culture" will apply to Toronto as it has been booming, becoming increasingly expensive, and in essence, a Manhattanization effect on various neighborhoods. Do you feel that way or do you see the general perception apply to others? Just curious about it. As I don't live in Toronto, wanted to get a query about this topic.

I'm really curious about the perception that this boom has instilled in residents.

Even with the explosion in housing costs there is no way a low immigration scenario is in the cards for Toronto.

[north 42]

So much Toronto bashing and lots of inaccuracies being thrown around!

[dc_denizen]

I won’t stand for this bashing of Nassau county.

(Which by the way probably has 50 Long Island Rail road stations)

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by chris08876

But for those who live in Toronto.... would you say that the Manhattanization of Toronto has been a good thing for the city culture or is it pushing it towards a side that discourages immigration and might deter those who want to move there (prices I'm leading up too), along with changing the "feel" of the city.

Sometimes in my area, you'll hear people say that NY is not the same NY that it was in the 80's or 90's. I wonder if that same feeling with regards to the "city culture" will apply to Toronto as it has been booming, becoming increasingly expensive, and in essence, a Manhattanization effect on various neighborhoods. Do you feel that way or do you see the general perception apply to others? Just curious about it. As I don't live in Toronto, wanted to get a query about this topic.

I'm really curious about the perception that this boom has instilled in residents.

Like NYC, Toronto is not the same place that it was in the 80s and 90s; one could say the same for every city in Canada. Culture shifts, especially in immigrant nations. With each new wave of migrants a new layer is added to the city fabric, the culture changes, then it happens all over again. This process has been happening in the New World for centuries. There are always people who resist change and deem the culture they grew up in the 'real' culture and any attempt to change it as an attack on it/themselves.

I'm a firm believer that the most interesting culture occurs in places with mass immigration, a cross pollination of culture, and a critical mass in one place. Drake, The Weeknd, Shawn Mendes, Alessia Cara, TIFF, even the rise of Canada in basketball are related to these key ingredients being present in Toronto. I also believe it's just the tip of the iceberg. Toronto's cultural production is exploding and the city's influence beyond Ontario/Canada will grow much stronger still.

The Manhattanization of Toronto is making the city more unaffordable but I don't see that stalling cultural production or Toronto's rise as a place of cultural influence. It's preferable to have a city where artists aren't forced out but I don't see the number of people wanting to come to Toronto slowing down. What high prices are doing is keeping migration at ~100,000/year. If Toronto was as cheap as Montreal or Chicago we might see that number go far higher.

Much depends on the federal government's immigration policy. Demographers and the tech industry are pleading for more immigration and the Trudeau government are listening. Immigration to Canada bumped up to 300,000 last year and they've hinted that it's going to head substantially higher. Toronto will surely get a good share of that number. Personally I'd like to see Canada's immigration intake at around 1.5% of national population or about 550,000 annually. It bears repeating that some Torontonians long for the Toronto of 1980.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by north 42

So much Toronto bashing and lots of inaccuracies being thrown around!

I don't mind negative comments as long as people are open to having their perceptions changed by the facts. It's no shock that most people are ignorant of Toronto and Canada. We're an enigma to a lot of people and their image of this place is shaped by South Park and 1850s cliches.

It only becomes irritating when people aren't interested in learning about something that's new to them. Those people are easy to spot after 2-3 posts.

Originally Posted by Crawford

I mean, yeah, these are all good things, but they aren't directly related to Toronto's growth. Toronto is a relative boomtown because of liberal Canadian immigration policies. That's basically it. It isn't because of the Great Lakes or University of Toronto or access to Cleveland and Buffalo.

The fact that it's the primate English-speaking city in a major, first world country that's extremely pro-immigrant has led to a dramatic transformation over the past half-century. I don't think there's anything else remotely relevant. Toronto gets a shit-ton of immigrants, mostly educated and skilled, every year.

I know you're firm in that belief so I won't press it.