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  #61  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Sam "Look at Me" Merulla probably sent out 10 so press releases over the two days.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 12:13 AM
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Looks like a state of emergency could be called, a media update is coming up soon. Red Hill Parkway will be closed for 48 hrs.


http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/607038
What did they expect? Water carved a huge valley here in the first place, nature is just taking its course.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 12:15 AM
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I understand that people are upset and have lost valuables, however this was a once is a lifetime storm. I took a walk along the red hill creek this morning and it looks nothing like it used to look. This storm dramatically changed the creek bed. In addition it dramatically change the look of albion falls. For those of you firmilyar next time you go there you are going to be suprised.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 3:46 AM
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I understand that people are upset and have lost valuables, however this was a once is a lifetime storm.
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Originally Posted by thespec.com
But despite damage from the downpour, Environment Canada said there is nothing out of character about the storm for the season.
.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 4:51 AM
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Sam "Look at Me" Merulla probably sent out 10 so press releases over the two days.
People need help. This is a good time for a politician to be loud.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 11:20 AM
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I took a walk along the red hill creek this morning and it looks nothing like it used to look. This storm dramatically changed the creek bed.
Construction workers changed the creek bed a few years ago. Despite all the claims that it would be better and the design would take environmental concerns into consideration, they just wanted the creek out of the way so they could build the road. Apparently the creek as designed can no longer handle a major storm.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 11:45 AM
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People need help. This is a good time for a politician to be loud.
Compare that with 1 press release from the Mayor over the weekend and his house got flooded as well.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 11:50 AM
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The section of the creek I looks at is above where any humans had altered it. Also if this is noting out of the ordinary this would happen every summer so use your brain and think to yourself hey this has never happened before and I am pretty sure it has thunderstormed since the parkway has opened.

Seriously this was something that has never happened before probably since hurricane Hazel in 54.

I know everyone love to blame the city but if this happened in Toronto Burlington Buffalo it would have been the same thing there. infact the DVP was flooded out a few summers ago.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 11:54 AM
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oh and Environment Canada said that because all the airport got was s 37mm. which even that is quite a bit but not 111mm.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 12:26 PM
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I'm not trying to fight here, just pointing out that it is weather events like this that helped carve a huge valley out of the escarpment in the first place. To think that we can contain the forces of nature in a tiny concrete channel shows the kind of arrogance and lack of foresight that humans often display, not just in Hamilton, but everywhere.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Compare that with 1 press release from the Mayor over the weekend and his house got flooded as well.
Which press releases are you talking about? I stand by my previous comment.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Also if this is noting out of the ordinary this would happen every summer so use your brain and think to yourself hey this has never happened before and I am pretty sure it has thunderstormed since the parkway has opened.
The parkway has been open for a couple of years, not decades.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 12:55 PM
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Half of Merulla's press release is just junk, just doing trash talk and not advancing any good. Lashing out and cursing at the city and the media during the weekend does what good? He's basically a media whore that seeks out attention. I was kinda surprised CHCH News last evening didn't have an interview with Merulla, wish other local media would do the same and ignore him.

He is an embarrassment, such as calling for a boycott for the Sabres and the Leafs, which got the attention of the Buffalo News and the National Post.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/607953
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  #74  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 1:48 PM
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I know everyone love to blame the city but if this happened in Toronto Burlington Buffalo it would have been the same thing there. infact the DVP was flooded out a few summers ago.
I was there. We took a 1993 neon through water up to the windshield... and it kept going... haha. (it probably reduced its value from $100 to $75....)

A lot of the residents of the million-dollar homes up at Bayview/Steeles couldn't get home because a fifteen-foot section of the road was three feet deep in water... some tried and wrecked much, much more expensive cars.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
I'm not trying to fight here, just pointing out that it is weather events like this that helped carve a huge valley out of the escarpment in the first place. To think that we can contain the forces of nature in a tiny concrete channel shows the kind of arrogance and lack of foresight that humans often display, not just in Hamilton, but everywhere.
Im not trying to fight either but people are talking like if the highway wasn't build this flood flood wouldn't have happened. it would have it was just too much rain. I your right we çan't try and contain a flood nowhere can, however like i said further up stream from where any alterations were made to the creek it still went over its banks and erodded away sections. It also had the power to dramatically change the look of albion falls.

If we want to blame anything it would be that the whole east mountian storm sewer system empties in to the redhill creek. The likely played a larger part of the problem. Aside from the 111mm of rain we got. If this had come down over any other watershed in Hamilton weather is had been tiffany's creek of Spencers Creek I have no doubt the same thing would have happened except some other road would have been closed and all though would have been blammed on something else.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by urban_planner View Post
I understand that people are upset and have lost valuables, however this was a once is a lifetime storm.
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Seriously this was something that has never happened before probably since hurricane Hazel in 54.
So then it's a twice in a lifetime, so far.........
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  #77  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 3:32 PM
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I was there. We took a 1993 neon through water up to the windshield... and it kept going... haha. (it probably reduced its value from $100 to $75....)
No you didn't, because the Neon came out as a 1994 vehicle.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 4:39 PM
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ok so it was a twice in a life time storm regardless, to blame the parkway is just silly although the idea of a highway making a flood sounds like an interesting sci-fi movie. Or maybe we should invest in some industrial sized bounty, its the quicker picker upper.

Like I said this flood change Albion falls and that's before the water from Buttermilk falls Glendale falls and Felker's falls empties into the Red Hill creek which happens at the king St Interchange.

Seriously I know everyone really wants to say i told you so about the parkway but know your facts. Not just oh there a flood maybe someone flushed there toilet.

I love climate change. Can't wait for another 25 years for the next time the Red hill Valley Parkway needs to Cry.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 5:31 PM
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A few comments on rain and flooding

Probably the most misunderstood concept is that of the "x-year storm". This does not mean a storm that only happens once every x years, and so if it happens a couple of times in a relatively short while it can't be a "x-year storm"

What it really means is a storm that the probability of it occurring in a given year is 1/x. So the odds of a 100 yr storm is 1/100, or 1%. The reason that it's called a 100 year storm is that over the span of hundreds of years, this should average out to once per hundred years. But you can still have them back to back.

Another thing is that there are several different types of 100 yr storm. Using historical data a model of rainfall in a given area is created. Its called an Intensity-Duration-Frequency curve, or IDF. It describes three things
1)how heavily does it rain (intensity)
2)how long does it rain for (duration)
3)how often does this happen (frequency)

Unfortunately our records do not go far enough back in a lot of cases to give accurate data for very large events, as this part of the world has only been settled for 200 yrs, and accurate record keeping is a lot shorter than that. Large events are generally modelled by extrapolating from the smaller events. Below is data for Hamilton from Environment Canada

DURATION 2 YR 5 YR 10 YR 25 YR 50 YR 100 YR
5 MIN 107.5 139.4 160.5 187.2 206.9 226.6
10 MIN 76.2 101.8 118.7 140.1 156.0 171.8
15 MIN 61.7 82.7 96.6 114.2 127.2 140.1
30 MIN 41.4 55.2 64.4 75.9 84.5 93.0
1 H 25.1 35.4 42.3 50.9 57.3 63.7
2 H 14.9 21.5 25.9 31.4 35.5 39.6
6 H 6.4 9.0 10.7 12.9 14.5 16.1
12 H 3.7 5.0 5.9 7.1 7.9 8.8
24 H 2.1 2.9 3.4 4.0 4.5 4.9

What this describes is that for any given year in Hamilton, the odds are 1/100 (1%) that a storm lasting 5 minutes will rain at a rate of 226.6 mm/hr, a storm lasting 10 minutes will rain at a rate of 171.8 mm/hr, and so on. So there are several different types of 100 year storm, depending on how long each one lasts. Notice that these are rates of rainfall, not amount of rainfall. To get the amount, multiply the rate by the duration (226.6 mm/hr * 5/60 hr =18.9 mm)

The amount of runoff created by a rainstorm depends on a lot of different factors.
-intensity of the rainfall (Heavy rainfalls don't have a chance to soak into the ground)
-slope of the terrain (water ponds on flat ground, races away on steep slopes)
-type of ground (asphalt is virtually waterproof, while dirt will soak up water)
-how wet the ground already is
-density of vegetation (tall grass will help hold back water, short grass doesn't)

As was mentioned in today's Spectator, a 50 yr rainstorm can produce a 100 yr flood, depending on if the ground is wet. But comparing old floods to current ones is not that helpful, because we've altered the landscape so much in the last few decades by development. Storms that caused heavy flooding 100 years ago may not cause it today, and vice versa.

Last edited by hamtransithistory; Jul 28, 2009 at 10:26 PM.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2009, 5:36 PM
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hey thanks for that information. might shet some light on something for folks in reations to the 100 year storm talk.

None the less this was impressive amounts of rain and I don't think I will see this again. Although Im only 27 so who knows.
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