The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Sportsnet had a Canadian panel for this World Cup. They're not broadcasting games but their panel was Canadian (aside from Sharman IIRC, who's been in the country for over a decade anyway).

I like Wileman, the rest I could care less about. I think if you want to sell the game to the non immigrant you need a guy like Forrest who has been there and done that.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

I like Wileman, the rest I could care less about. I think if you want to sell the game to the non immigrant you need a guy like Forrest who has been there and done that.

The non-immigrant probably isn't the target audience, though.

A lot of people already watch soccer in Canada. I think it's less of an issue of turning them onto it and more creating a better environment to develop the sport as a whole. A decent number of people watch EPL & MLS and a good number are watching the World Cup.

Anecdotally, to add to this, the bar I was watching England/Croatia at in Halifax was absolutely packed and the crowd was mostly under 35. England playing helped a lot, but most bars I saw were busy and rowdy. Place was electric.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by jhikka

a decent number of people watch epl

fyp

[JHikka]

https://www.bellmedia.ca/pr/press/25...nding-success/

3.9M average for World Cup Final.
2.5M average for ENG/CRO semifinal.

ENG/CRO was most streamed match with 155K.

[JHikka]

Stampede gallops to second-highest attendance of all time

CBC News · Posted: Jul 16, 2018 1:08 PM MT | Last Updated: July 16

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...pede-1.4748765

"The Stampede said 1,271,241 passed through its gates this year, up more than 56,000 from last year. The number was 150,000 short of the event's all-time record, when 1,409,371 people attended the Stampede's centennial in 2012."

[WhipperSnapper]

Here I thought acceptance and understanding of accents are one of our defining moments from are continental neighbours where even the slightest accent confuses and the TV gods rectify it with subtitles.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by megadude

I am of the opinion as well that if a place like Ottawa or wherever suddenly got a team in MLB, MLS, NBA it would mean a noticeable drop in RedBlacks attendance. Maybe not instantly, but within a couple of years. I think people would gravitate towards the team in the big time league.

Originally Posted by elly63

They wouldn't leave for NHL but would for MLS? I think that's kinda stretching it.

This discussion is better suited for this thread rather than the CFL thread, so my reply will be here.

Firstly, Ottawa won't be getting an MLS team (or an NBA, MLB team...) so the entire end of that discussion is moot. Ottawa will however be getting a CPL team (presumably) next year, so we'll see how their attendances will line up. Currently the Fury garner anywhere between 3K and 7K for matches (and upwards of 9K/10K for playoffs/one-off matches). CPL is aiming for 6K/7K which should be attainable in Ottawa.

Secondly, we do have numbers to compare MLS & CFL attendances in select Canadian cities and they have been trending towards relatively stable MLS attendances and declining CFL attendances. Montreal is a basketcase in best case scenarios:

City:........................(CFL) / (MLS)
Vancouver 2014: (28,011) / (20,408)
Vancouver 2015: (21,290) / (20,507)
Vancouver 2016: (21,056) / (22,330)
Vancouver 2017: (19,858) / (21,416)
Vancouver 2018: (19,862) / (21,493) (to date)

Montreal 2014: (20,679) / (17,421)
Montreal 2015: (21,430) / (17,750)
Montreal 2016: (20,378) / (20,669)
Montreal 2017: (19,522) / (20,046)
Montreal 2018: (18,108) / (18,066) (to date)

Toronto 2014: (17,791) / (22,086)
Toronto 2015: (12,432) / (23,451)
Toronto 2016: (16,380) / (26,541)
Toronto 2017: (13,914) / (27,647)
Toronto 2018: (13,163) / (26,302) (to date)

And, finally:
City:...............(CFL) / (NASL/USL)
Ottawa 2014: (24,295) / (4,488)
Ottawa 2015: (23,433) / (5,164)
Ottawa 2016: (24,664) / (5,521)
Ottawa 2017: (24,523) / (5,427)
Ottawa 2018: (22,549) / (4,740) (to date)

Throughout this time the Senators attendance has fluctuated (which I personally blame on the arena location).

It's not unfair to assume that the entrance of the MLS into a market may have some impact on CFL attendances but I personally don't think the markets crossover that much. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that people are taking off football hats and putting on soccer hats in the next motion. There's quite a few soccer fans in Canada, it's mostly just a matter of tapping into that potential.

In saying all that I think it's natural that if a new, shiny objects enters into a market that the currently existing objects may feel some what of an initial shock as consumers are potentially split with options.

Originally Posted by UrbanClimate

Nonsense. Last week Toronto FC played a "Canadian Championship" game against Ottawa Fury at TD Place Stadium in Ottawa and barely 6,000 people showed up. Two days later the BC Lions played the Ottawa REDBLACKS in a CFL game in the same stadium and 22,000 showed up. The REDBLACKS have solid support and I doubt that another pro sports team that plays in a US league with mostly (or entirely) US players would spell the end. Maybe in Toronto, but not Ottawa.

The REDBLACKS are seeing some slightly declines in numbers this season, though, if we're nitpicking. That 22K used to be a very reliable 24K since essentially their inception into the league. There are a few empty corners at REDBLACKS games, i'm being offered free REDBLACKS tickets this season...

The Fury team, for the sake of prosterity, have a number of Canadians on their roster (in the rumoured buildup to their switch to CPL next season). It would help if they were playing against Calgary or Winnipeg instead of North Carolina or Cincinnati.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's not unfair to assume that the entrance of the MLS into a market may have some impact on CFL attendances but I personally don't think the markets crossover that much. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that people are taking off football hats and putting on soccer hats in the next motion. There's quite a few soccer fans in Canada, it's mostly just a matter of tapping into that potential.

Agree, it should also be said there are many football fans that are not CFL fans, this is where MLS soccer and CFL are very similar. If a tenth team comes to the Maritimes I can guarantee a large number of that crowd will be converted, unfortunately I can't say the same thing for Toronto.

[megadude]

Overlap.

NHL and CFL are basically two different times of the year. MLS would overlap with CFL. And I think people would want to experience the more "major" league. Even if the calibre of CFL football player is higher than the calibre of MLS soccer player. It's psychological in many cases.

And I'm just saying RedBlacks would lose some fans, not all of them. I've never been to a game there but I'm guessing there are many casual fans who go because it's something to do, not necessarily because they're true fans of the team.

I've sat with the Red Patch Boys at BMO several times. A couple of season ticket holders I've talked to there admitted they weren't real soccer fans. They just loved the atmosphere of the chanting and flag waving and throwing streamers when that wasn't prohibited. If somehow the Fury did become an MLS team (never know, could happen in 25 years) and they got some lively supporter groups going, I can see that taking away a portion of the casual sports fan who attends a couple RedBlacks games a year.

Now, if there were several major pro teams to choose from in a market, even if they are not conflicting in the same time of the year, people only have so much money to spend on sports entertainment or any form of entertainment for that matter for any given year.

I personally only attend like two games a year now between Jays, Argos, Raps, Leafs, FC. I've never been to a Wolfpack or Rock game. Those sports don't really tickle my fancy. Plus if you're in to junior hockey you got Oshawa and Sauga. And formerly Brampton and I wanna say St. Mikes was around same time too. And there's the Marlies and Raptors 905 too.

Then there's the one-offs. I bought two tix for Duke vs UofT at the Hershey Centre next month. Just attended Global T20 cricket a few weeks ago at a cost $65 + gas. Also got Pan Am Games, gold cup, WC of Hockey and so on in the past two or three years.

Last year I said I can only go to the first weekend of Rogers Cup tennis because that's free. But still gotta spend on gas and $20 parking. And I was planning on dropping $50 for the Canadian Open but thankfully I got some free corp. tix from my bro in law who happens to bank at RBC.

Then there's Honda Indy. I've only been three times but that's because I love F1 and have done Montreal a good ten times now. Also done various racing categories at Mosport.

Been on many roadies for NFL, MLB and college. Tonnes of Bills fans come from Southern Ontario. I think I heard somewhere 20% of attendance comes from Ontario. Lots of them from the GTA.

Plus, some Oakville people but more so Burlington people will go to TiCats games over Argos. I see the t-shirts. They even sell TiCats shirts in a couple of Burlington stores I used to frequent when I lived there. So TiCats draw some western GTA people. The markets overlap to an extent.

And then there are the guys in the GTHA who go to one or two NFL/College games each year at Steelers, Lions, Bills, and UM and occasionally ND and MSU because those are manageable drives and have cheap hotels if you're willing to stay by the airport or 25 minutes away. If you have easy access to that, you can become hooked on those leagues and not the CFL. Most CFL markets don't have that problem.

Oh, and a lot of this involves bringing the family! So can triple any prices mentioned.

Anyway, point is, many, many options out there. Not just for sports, but recreation and entertainment in general.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by megadude

MLS would overlap with CFL. And I think people would want to experience the more "major" league. Even if the calibre of CFL football player is higher than the calibre of MLS soccer player. It's psychological in many cases.

I often see that but don't buy it. Aren't TFC's main rivals the Impact and Caps? Surely not the NY RedBulls.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by megadude

And I'm just saying RedBlacks would lose some fans, not all of them. I've never been to a game there but I'm guessing there are many casual fans who go because it's something to do, not necessarily because they're true fans of the team.

And then there are the guys in the GTHA who go to one or two NFL/College games each year at Steelers, Lions, Bills, and UM and occasionally ND and MSU because those are manageable drives and have cheap hotels if you're willing to stay by the airport or 25 minutes away.

Went to the REDBLACKS/Riders game in Week 2 and the people I was with kept saying that they were excited to be going down south later this year to watch real football. They were only at the game because the tickets were free. I have friends of mine in the GTA that are Bills STHs who wouldn't touch a CFL game if their lives depended on it.

All sports have these casual fans to a degree. It's mostly just a matter of figuring out what % of the crowd are diehards and what % are casuals.

Obviously the sport market is more split up in Toronto than Ottawa...we only really have minor-league options in Ottawa for things like soccer/baseball but they're still enjoyable. It's still crazy to me that a two-year-old rugby team playing out of Lamport can nearly outdraw the Argos at BMO at the same time, but here we are.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

I often see that but don't buy it. Aren't TFC's main rivals the Impact and Caps? Surely not the NY RedBulls.

Caps aren't rivals. TFCs main rivals are Montreal, NYCFC, Seattle and to a lesser extent Atlanta.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Went to the REDBLACKS/Riders game in Week 2 and the people I was with kept saying that they were excited to be going down south later this year to watch real football. They were only at the game because the tickets were free. I have friends of mine in the GTA that are Bills STHs who wouldn't touch a CFL game if their lives depended on it.

Sorry that just doesn't pass the common sense test, they would go to a game that they hold in contempt? Methinks you're up to some shenanigans. How many EPL fans wouldn't be caught dead at MLS?

It's still crazy to me that a two-year-old rugby team playing out of Lamport can nearly outdraw the Argos at BMO at the same time, but here we are.

Holy cow you guys are stretching it today.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

Sorry that just doesn't pass the common sense test, they would go to a game that they hold in contempt? Methinks you're up to some shenanigans.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, but yes....the power of free tickets and an excuse to drink is strong with some.

Originally Posted by elly63

How many EPL fans wouldn't be caught dead at MLS?

See:

Originally Posted by JHikka

All sports have these casual fans to a degree. It's mostly just a matter of figuring out what % of the crowd are diehards and what % are casuals.

Originally Posted by elly63

Holy cow you guys are stretching it today.

What am I stretching? Argos had 11K and Wolfpack had 7K at the same time within blocks of each other.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

What am I stretching? Argos had 11K and Wolfpack had 7K at the same time within blocks of each other.

"can nearly outdraw the Argos at BMO at the same time"

Is that the new math?

[megadude]

I forgot to add one more sport that draws interest. Horse Racing. Albeit that's more for the gambling aspect of entertainment not the actual race itself like for the Kentucky Derby or perhaps Queen's Plate.

There's Woodbine (home to 2/3 of the Canadian Triple Crown), Ajax, Mohawk, Flamboro and Georgian Downs. All within the GTA or the periphery. Some serious sports entertainment dollars go towards those places. Okay that's only a fraction of the people who might have otherwise spent money going to an Argos game but if you say that for all the other options then it starts to add up. Hell I just went to Flamboro Downs yesterday after fishing at Christie Reservoir since it's across the street.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Went to the REDBLACKS/Riders game in Week 2 and the people I was with kept saying that they were excited to be going down south later this year to watch real football. They were only at the game because the tickets were free. I have friends of mine in the GTA that are Bills STHs who wouldn't touch a CFL game if their lives depended on it.

I know the kind of people you're talking about.

I was once at Woodbine betting on some horses but also following the Italy England Euro 2012 game on the TVs there. It went to PKs. So virtually everyone crowded around to watch. But there were two losers behind me that kept talking to each other saying how dumb soccer was and what losers these people are for watching. Yet there they were watching the PKs like everyone else when they could have just gone to the other screens to watch the OTB races from all around the world when there's a break between races at Woodbine.

[big W]

One thing not touched on is the changing demographics in Canada. Football is bit penetrating into the immigrant communities. "Footie" however has a ready base. As a greater percentage of the population is made of visible minorities, and Football continues to fail to reach them we will continue to see numbers drop vs "Footie" which should show an increase due to this being a game they know.

Father and Son bonding over a sports game for example that the Canadian Born child may go to a soccer game with dad as dad took them vs a football game where dad didn't know or care about the game and therefore never took the son. Over time that son grows up watching and going to soccer games vs football games.

[JHikka]

Week 4 CFL:

HMT/SSK: 741,400
EDM/TOR: 477,900
BC/WPG: 466,800
OTT/MTL: 393,900

http://3downnation.com/2018/07/12/cf...assive-number/

Week 6 CFL:

SSK/HMT: 689,300
BC/OTT: 500,200
MTL/CGY: 452,900
WPG/TOR: 421,200

http://3downnation.com/2018/07/25/cf...-provide-bump/

[megadude]

Was anyone following the Canadian Open? I think anyone who had even the most casual interest just knew DJ was going to win before it even started. Twice runner up. Married to Paulina Gretzky. Rocking the 99 Oilers jersey on the Wednesday. Talking about all the support he gets up here. Playing about 45 minutes from his father in law's hometown. #1 player in the world. Potentially the last ever Open at Glen Abbey.

Everything just seemed like it was lining up for him to win. I've never had that feeling before for a golf tournament and have never read so many of the same comments online.