Edmonton Trolley's Should be scrapped - consultant

[CanadianCentaur]

Hmmm, looks like things really are pointing towards a decomissioning of the trolley system...

Report calls for end of Edmonton's trolley buses
Gordon Kent, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 12:01 pm

EDMONTON - Edmonton should phase out its trolley system by 2010 and replace the fleet with 47 new hybrid buses, says a city report released today.

The move would save about $100 million by 2027 due to cheaper maintenance, money saved by eliminating expensive overhead power lines and the lower cost of buying hybrids instead of new trolleys, the report says.

This comparison takes into account an $11.6 million charge to decommission the overhead system.

While trolley motors don't produce air pollution, overall the vehicles account for more regional emissions in almost every category than hybrids or clean diesel buses because trolleys rely on electricity produced by coal-burning power plants, the report says.

Surveys and workshops indicate 62 per cent of the general public and transit riders favour buying hybrid buses, while two-thirds of Edmonton Transit drivers support diesel buses compared to two per cent who want to keep trolleys, the report says.

However, the report concedes groups involved in the issue are "generally cautious" about eliminating the vehicles.

The issue will be discussed Tuesday in a public hearing at council's transportation and public works committee.

gkent@thejournal.canwest.com

© Edmonton Journal 2008

[feepa]

^ you should add a link to your post, or it may get turfed

[CanadianCentaur]

Originally Posted by feepa

^ you should add a link to your post, or it may get turfed

Here ya go, knock yourself out...

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...d-02f7a86bae30

I'm feeling like doing the same, because I've only had two or three hours' worth of sleep over the last 48. Ahhh, the joys of insomnia.

[Koolfire]

Read the report an there's a lot of fuzzy math. A couple of things that concern me about analyst is:
I'm not sure if using an 18 year limit makes more or less sense than a km limit. The 18 year limit really skew the analyst to Diesel buses but in reality electric motors last longer then combustion motors.
80% uptime for the trolley system is terrible!! How many days does the LRT have problems running? 5 maybe 10 days.
If the trolley only runs 80% of the time should it have a 25% longer lifespan? Again the 18 year measure.
In the analyst the trolley gets hit twice in the cost per km measure as it only get 80% of the km estimate but has to cover the cost of replacement buses for the 20% downtime. So it covers $12000 in the remain 80% uptime.
66 Million for maintaining the system for 18 year. Really? Can someone point me to the Mobile Equipment Services report that was vaguely referenced? I wonder if it's for equipment that will last way longer then 18 years?
The cost per litre of Diesel was 80 cents!
How is the shop maintenance for a trolley more then a hybrid? Both use an electric brakes and have an electric drive. How is maintaining an combustion engine, hybrid systems and battery cheaper then the polls that connect to the power lines?
Lithium batteries? Aren't those the ones that explode in laptops and cellphone? Any future liability issues to consider?
Pollution that comes for the power grid is questionable. Calgary LRT and IKEA are wind powered. So could this! Bullfrog sell 100% green energy to Alberta homes at 2 cents a Kilowatt hour. The analyst is calculating a 12.5 cents Kilowatt hour.
The acceleration chart make no sense. I can't figure out how to read it. First i thought that it was how long to get to a speed on the left. But, that would mean the curves would be continuously increasing. Ok, it can't be an normal acceleration as the measurement is wrong. It should be KM/H per second or M/s per second (Metres per second squared)

This report seems bias and smells fishy.

[MalcolmTucker]

No way Bullfrog sells power for that little, unless there is a huge government subsidy on it.

The way Bullfrog works is they add 2 cents per kilowatt hour to pay for the higher cost of emissions free electricity, and to balance the fact that the emissions free power doesn't flow all the time, at least in Alberta.

It is similar to Enmax's Greenmax program. Pay more for the same product.

Bullfrog in Alberta is pretty much a scam, since people/businesses buying power through them pays them twice.

The Alberta government already guarantees that all wind power that is produced will be purchased (they established a floor price for wind producers) and then the wind producers also get the benefit of the market when prices are up.

If you sign up for Bullfrog you pay them with your utility dollars and through the government.

If they can get people to sign up for it then more power to them, but it is pretty pointless. The new wind farms are being built anyways since the government made them economic with the floor price.

[Koolfire]

I thought 2 cents was too cheap.. Bullfrogs faqs is kinda deceiving. Off their website:

How much will Bullfrog Power cost me?
Bullfrog will invoice you monthly for your monthly usage (one twelfth of your annual usage) times the rate to green your electricity supply (2 cents per kWh) plus applicable taxes. For example, if your monthly usage is 650 kWh, you will be charged 650 x $0.02 = $13.00 plus applicable taxes.

You have to dig deeper to see that it 2 cents to Green your energy.

What kind of agreement does Calgary LRT and IKEA? I've seen them advertise that a certain percentage of their power is wind. Advertising BS?

[mersar]

The LRT benefits from the fact that Enmax is city owned, though it does advertise that its 100% wind powered. The details are probably floating around, I've never seen them though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Enmax built a wind farm and to claim Calgary's LRT is fully wind the city buys power from the farm that is enough to power it when the wind is blowing, plus the amount extra to offset when the wind isn't blowing.

This was all done before the province put in the wind supports, and Enmax built a physical wind farm to do it, along with home owners and businesses that opted into the Greenmax program.

Since I am not sure how Ikea buys it power, who knows what arrangement they use. They might buy Greenmax, or Bullfrog. Or they might buy extra wind power in Sweden to offset the emissions for coal plants in Alberta.

While wind is useful and will provide a large part of our energy mix for years to come, people that claim 100% of their consumption comes from wind and therefor don't have to be guilty are kidding themselves. We could build all the wind capacity in the world and we would still need coal or gas power plants. While people may be consuming net zero polluting power, unless their lights flicker when the winds calm down...

In any case back to the Trolleys

Do any of you think there would be support on council for keeping one of the routes and laying down streetcar rails like the Portland Street Car? Not sure which route, since I am not intimately knowledgeable of what streets would benefit the most from this. Portland was able to do 4km double tracked for $60 million (2001 US dollars)


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImageortlandStreetcarAndTram.jpg under GNU license.

[DizzyEdge]

One thing to keep in mind, although hybrid diesels may cause less pollution than Coal plants powering the trollies, that polution that is created will be on downtown Edmonton streets, rather than out in the country somewhere (ok actually up in the upper atmosphere out in the country likely).

Also I've always been wary of this kind of argument, as to further reduce pollution on a moving vehicle you have to contend with the size and weight of whatever pollution devices you improve on, whereas with a plant you can be as big and heavy as you want as it doesn't have to the device anywhere.. this is assuming that the technology of coal scrubbing and such hasn't reached it's endpoint.

[newfangled]

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

Do any of you think there would be support on council for keeping one of the routes and laying down streetcar rails like the Portland Street Car? Not sure which route, since I am not intimately knowledgeable of what streets would benefit the most from this. Portland was able to do 4km double tracked for $60 million (2001 US dollars)

Jasper-124-107-97 would be a pretty sweet streetcar route.

The only problem is that Jasper, 107ave and 97st are all pretty important from a car and bus perspective as well. So you'd have to show that all three can coexist peacefully.

(there's also one significant dip on Jasper which might be a problem?)

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

One thing to keep in mind, although hybrid diesels may cause less pollution than Coal plants powering the trollies, that polution that is created will be on downtown Edmonton streets, rather than out in the country somewhere (ok actually up in the upper atmosphere out in the country likely).

Also I've always been wary of this kind of argument, as to further reduce pollution on a moving vehicle you have to contend with the size and weight of whatever pollution devices you improve on, whereas with a plant you can be as big and heavy as you want as it doesn't have to the device anywhere.. this is assuming that the technology of coal scrubbing and such hasn't reached it's endpoint.

It depends if you care about Green House gases as a pollutant or not. And whether you believe large scale carbon sequestration will happen if the above case in your mind is true.

[Herr_Verlage]

A video from da Sun.

http://torontosun.feedroom.com/linki...33f5c803869&rf

[IKAN104]

That was kind of a weird video.

[dansk]

Bullfrog is a scam, they buy there power from the producers and then charge an arm for it. A company built on marketing.

ENMAX I am really impressed with. They come right out and state that windfarms only run about 35-40% of the time, thus they need new generation. Plus I just read that they are introducing new solar programs that will eventually move into residencial to heat water and such.

Know how Bullfrog skews information to make money, it bothers me to see places like MEC on Bullfrog since they are through there money into a retailer that isn't making a difference besides buying the power off the grid and selling it back to you.

As far as the trolley's go, I would say they are expensive for what you get. If you can save money going with Hybrid Diesel do it, and then place the money saved into better electricity plans like updated buildings that are city owned and make Edmonton a green city.

Both Calgary and Edmonton should be leading the world in this path, since Alberta is seen as a World polluter now.

[CanadianCentaur]

Don't forget that today's a crucial one for the trolleys!

Stage set for transit trolley vote
Gordon Kent, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 12:20 pm

EDMONTON - The final debate over the future of Edmonton trolleys started today with a plea by transportation general manager Bob Boutilier to scrap the system and buy more buses.

"Every dollar you spend on trolleys is money that's not being spent on other transit service and other transit technology," he told city council.

Transit officials have recommended eliminating the electric vehicles by 2010 and buying 47 new hybrid buses instead, citing consultant reports indicating this move would save the city $100 million by 2027 in operating and other costs.

Trolley supporters say the system should be retained and expanded, disputing the figures used in the reports and arguing Edmonton needs alternative sources of power for its transit fleet because oil is becoming scarce.

But University of Alberta engineering professor David Checkel, the author of one report, accused his critics of taking a "nostalgic" approach that doesn't reflect the improvements in modern buses.

"It's a combination of a whole lot of improbable things to make trolleys look attractive," he said.

"I would rather see us spend money to put more buses on the streets so we can get more cars off the road."

Councillors will decide what to do with trolleys later today in what's likely to be a close vote.

gkent@thejournal.canwest.com

© Edmonton Journal 2008

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...f-1315faf05e85

[240glt]

Well that's it... according to CBC the trolleys are history

[CanadianCentaur]

Looks like it's time to say bye-bye to trolleybuses in Edmonton!

City council votes to scrap trolley buses
Gordon Kent, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 6:34 pm

EDMONTON - Following years of debate, city council has decided to scrap Edmonton's aging trolley system by 2010 and buy 47 new hybrid buses instead.

The vote was 7-6, with the majority of councillors accepting reports indicating the move would save $100 million over the next 18 years and allow the city to expand the transit system. They were pitted against trolley supporters who fear rising oil prices make keeping the electric vehicles a wise option in the long term.

"If we're really that passionate about the environment ... then in my opinion we have to support the motions that are in front of us. Trolley buses need to be eliminated," Coun. Jane Batty said.

The final debate over the future of Edmonton trolleys started today with a plea by transportation general manager Bob Boutilier.

"Every dollar you spend on trolleys is money that's not being spent on other transit service and other transit technology," he told city council.

Transit officials have recommended eliminating the electric vehicles by 2010 and buying 47 new hybrid buses instead, citing consultant reports indicating this move would save the city $100 million by 2027 in operating and other costs.

Trolley supporters said the system should be retained and expanded, disputing the figures used in the reports and arguing Edmonton needs alternative sources of power for its transit fleet because oil is becoming scarce.

But University of Alberta engineering professor David Checkel, the author of one report, accused his critics of taking a "nostalgic" approach that doesn't reflect the improvements in modern buses.

"It's a combination of a whole lot of improbable things to make trolleys look attractive," he said.

"I would rather see us spend money to put more buses on the streets so we can get more cars off the road."

gkent@thejournal.canwest.com

© Edmonton Journal 2008

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...f-1315faf05e85

Note: Sorry about posting the same EJ article in two threads at once, but I wasn't sure which was more appropriate - so I decided, whatever - post in both threads anyway!

[fortroad]

^ Wow, I truly can't believe it!

[Hardhatdan]

I'm saddened

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by CanadianCentaur

Looks like it's time to say bye-bye to trolleybuses in Edmonton!

[
"If we're really that passionate about the environment ... then in my opinion we have to support the motions that are in front of us. Trolley buses need to be eliminated," Coun. Jane Batty said.

And if we're really passionate about drunk driving, we'd allow allow drinking while driving.

And if we're really passionate stopping kids smoking, we'd allow smoking in schools.

Is she on something, or smoking some BC product?

Where's the logic in that statement?