When was the last decade of pre-war American cities?

[mrsmartman]

American cities changed a lot in the last century. From the videos below, 1961 was more similar to 1949 than 1970 for a metropolis like New York. It seems that the cities went through tremendous change in the 1960s. The legacy of pre-war America diminished since the 1950s and largely disappeared in the 1970s.

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[10023]

Given “the war” started in 1939, there is a correct answer to this.

And really it was the very early 1930s, because nothing much started or broke ground after the Depression hit.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by 10023

Given “the war” started in 1939, there is a correct answer to this.

Well... that's still sort of up for debate. When we talk of post-war, we usually mean post-1945, not 1939 (or 1941 in the US's case). And since the big urban shift in America didn't really get going until the late 40s, I'd consider pre-war development to be anything from 1945 or earlier. Not that there was much built in the first half of the 40s mind you - but nonetheless, it wasn't Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland that changed the urban dynamic.

Still, it would've taken a while for those post-war changes to really start adding up, and as has been mentioned, the 60s (or at least early 60s) were probably the last time most of our cities resembled their pre-war selves moreso than the modern city.



https://www.blogto.com/city/2016/11/..._in_the_1960s/


https://www.blogto.com/city/2017/03/...ections-1960s/


By the 70s, things had emptied out, modern towers filled out the skyline, and the sparse, utilitarian concrete look had become the face of many cities.



https://www.blogto.com/city/2014/03/..._extravaganza/

[JManc]

I would say around 1947 was the dividing line between "pre-war" and "post war" since the US was pre-occupied with the war itself between 1941 and 1945 and 1946 was about settling back into a normal existence...hence the baby boom. 1947 and onward is when cities changed direction entirely in terms of urban development and philosophy.

[Sun Belt]

The U.S. entered the war in 1941, so the decade before that would be the 1930s. Post war America saw a population explosion.

Wartime population was about 150 million. Since then the U.S. has grown by 180 million to 330 million.

[mousquet]

Oddly enough, it seems to me that postmodernism and individualistic ideals that partly lead to current, somewhat derailed globalized capitalism started from the early 1970s, following the 60's hippies cultural upheaval.

Along with computer developments, by the way. I like computers myself, cause they obey whatever you tell them.
But that's an issue of mine. My parents sometimes told me. You love computers just because unlike normal humans, they do what you tell them! You're an inhuman freak!
Maybe... I might well be such a weirdo. I don't care anyway.

I like the 60's because it started female emancipation. And I like women to the point that I want them to overtake men.
Before 1968, there still were schools for males, and different schools for females here.
You know what? I'd never have set foot in a school if there had been only stupid males in there.
But today, even Catholic schools are gender-mixed, which is a blessing.

However, I'm disturbed by all other aftermaths of the 1950s/60s.
Cars and selfishness all over. Short-term mindset. Profit as fast as it can be. "Jouir sans entraves", as they said here in 1968, 50 years ago.
No sense of responsibility for the future, for your own children. What will happen to children? Do people ever really wonder these days? Or do they only mind the bank accounts?

[toddguy]

It has to be the thirties. Very little got built between 1930 and 1945, and by the late 40's you had planned suburbs like Lakewood, California and the Levitttowns being built.

I would say the REAL last decade of pre-war America when there was much building was the 1920's. There was a huge change between the rampant building of the 20's and the postwar building of the late 40's, from changes in styles and materials to street pattern and form as well.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by toddguy

It has to be the thirties. Very little got built between 1930 and 1945, and by the late 40's you had planned suburbs like Lakewood, California and the Levitttowns being built.

I would say the REAL last decade of pre-war America when there was much building was the 1920's. There was a huge change between the rampant building of the 20's and the postwar building of the late 40's, from changes in styles and materials to street pattern and form as well.

I'd honestly put it even before the 1920s. The 20s were the first decade where most new residential developments were built around the car. The houses of that time are recognizably suburban, having front lawns, driveways and garages (albeit detached). New streetcar suburbs basically ceased to be laid out, although some existing ones filled in during that period.

So, basically how I divide things is:

Pre 1890 - The walking city
1890-1919 - Streetcar suburbia
1920-1945 - Interwar suburbia
1945 on - Postwar suburbia

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pre 1890 - The walking city
1890-1919 - Streetcar suburbia
1920-1945 - Interwar suburbia
1945 on - Postwar suburbia

This seems to be a good way of looking at it. So the whole interwar period is transitional?

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by toddguy

It has to be the thirties. Very little got built between 1930 and 1945, and by the late 40's you had planned suburbs like Lakewood, California and the Levitttowns being built.

I would say the REAL last decade of pre-war America when there was much building was the 1920's. There was a huge change between the rampant building of the 20's and the postwar building of the late 40's, from changes in styles and materials to street pattern and form as well.

But the fact that very little got built in the 1930s and 1940s means cities changed little until the 1950s and since I remember the changes happening, I can certify that that's true. The 1950s was the decade when the Interstate Highway system got started and much of it was built, but maybe more importantly for cities (although the Interstates made suburban commuting a lot easier for many), it was also when most cities ripped out their surface rail transit infrastructure (streetcars).

My family moved to the suburbs of DC, along with a lot of others, in 1949, but I can remember taking DC Transit streetcars "downtown" until, by 1960 or so they were gone.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

But the fact that very little got built in the 1930s and 1940s means cities changed little until the 1950s and since I remember the changes happening, I can certify that that's true. The 1950s was the decade when the Interstate Highway system got started and much of it was built, but maybe more importantly for cities (although the Interstates made suburban commuting a lot easier for many), it was also when most cities ripped out their surface rail transit infrastructure (streetcars).

My family moved to the suburbs of DC, along with a lot of others, in 1949, but I can remember taking DC Transit streetcars "downtown" until, by 1960 or so they were gone.

we can argue about when things really tipped, and this varied according to local conditions, but seems like we generally agree on the "lag" that persisted for a generation +/- after world war II. the last streetcar was removed from service st. louis in 1966...the 60s also seem to be bifurcated between the first half that was almost like the 1950s +, and the second half that was well, what people think of more commonly i suppose when thinking about the 1960s.

so perhaps the answer is one nobody has voted for...the 1950s.

[toddguy]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

But the fact that very little got built in the 1930s and 1940s means cities changed little until the 1950s and since I remember the changes happening, I can certify that that's true. The 1950s was the decade when the Interstate Highway system got started and much of it was built, but maybe more importantly for cities (although the Interstates made suburban commuting a lot easier for many), it was also when most cities ripped out their surface rail transit infrastructure (streetcars).

My family moved to the suburbs of DC, along with a lot of others, in 1949, but I can remember taking DC Transit streetcars "downtown" until, by 1960 or so they were gone.

I guess I took it as the decade before any changes. The big changes did not start until the late 40's and accelerated during the 50's and into the 60's. I see your point but I am looking at when the changes started and I see the start of suburbanization big time as the change point-even though of course it was a process as you explained.

Since the changes started in the 40's, I would go back before that decade when the city was truly pre-war. The 40's had so many soldiers coming back and a housing crunch and with those suburbs springing up there was a change in the dynamic. The city held on from the late 40's, but it was a losing battle for the pre-war city. Suburbs and shopping centers were already open-we had one called Town and Country Shopping Center that opened in 1949. The era of the 'shopping center' had arrived already. Along with the tract house and the outflow from the central city had begun. JMO of course.


*Funny how people love the city and the streetcars and all. My parents hated the city of the late 40's-it was dirty, crowded, run down from 15 years of deferred maintenance. Women hated having to walk to and from the streetcars in heels. They could not wait to get cars and move out to the suburbs.

[10023]

Originally Posted by toddguy

Funny how people love the city and the streetcars and all. My parents hated the city of the late 40's-it was dirty, crowded, run down from 15 years of deferred maintenance. Women hated having to walk to and from the streetcars in heels. They could not wait to get cars and move out to the suburbs.

It’s a shame that they didn’t just use America’s renewed wealth and prosperity to make up for those 15 years of poverty and a war economy, rather than building a bunch of shitty Levittowns and shopping malls.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by 10023

It’s a shame that they didn’t just use America’s renewed wealth and prosperity to make up for those 15 years of poverty and a war economy, rather than building a bunch of shitty Levittowns and shopping malls.

A lot of peope saved a lot of money during the war years because wages actually rose (for those left at home working) but there was nothing to spend it on. That's why people could afford the new cars that came back into production (my parents traded in their 1941 LaSalle for a 1949 Chevy) and houses in the Levittowns which they considered a big improvement from a cramped city apartment. I know my family of 4 was living in a one bedroom apartment until we moved to a 3 bedroom suburban split level. I remember having to wait for my grandparents to come take me to the city park to get outside until we moved to the new house with a large, fenced backyard and very little traffic to worry about anyway.

So what you consider "shitty", while perhaps eating your salad of French tomatoes, was considered anything but by the people of the time, adults and kids. Actually, for the kids the suburbs of the 1950s were something of a paradise--we all had bikes we could ride anywhere, there were nearby forests to explore because the housing developments hadn't yet bulldozed everything, the ice cream truck came by every afternoon and our parents let us stay out "until the streetlights come on".

Oh, and I had a go-cart I could race on the newly-paved-but-still-closed-to-traffic Washington Beltway after the construction crews had gone home.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

It’s a shame that they didn’t just use America’s renewed wealth and prosperity to make up for those 15 years of poverty and a war economy, rather than building a bunch of shitty Levittowns and shopping malls.

Hindsight is 20/20 and society did not look at urban centers the way it does today. Like Pedestrian mentioned, these neighborhoods with spacious homes and new schools were an obvious choice for millions raising new families after the war. We simply neglected the urban areas altogether rather than develop both.

[Centropolis]

i think there is a disconnect here between how people were still actually living, and when the chickens finally came home to roost on urban disinvestment, bad urban renewal schemes, etc. the 1960s really were the last sort of functional decade for many cities in the sense of a region generally still centered on a downtown, with lots and lots of middle class people using transit and living on blocks with neighborhood commercial a quick stroll, etc..it's when the last streetcar lines were removed in many american regions, for instance, but also a decade of well intentioned attempts at civic/public realm renewal. the 1970s were totally downhill.

i don't know that this is supposed to be a discussion about what different like, american urban history 101 development eras are.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i think there is a disconnect here between how people were still actually living, and when the chickens finally came home to roost on urban disinvestment, bad urban renewal schemes, etc. the 1960s really were the last sort of functional decade for many cities in the sense of a region generally still centered on a downtown, with lots and lots of middle class people using transit and living on blocks with neighborhood commercial a quick stroll, etc..it's when the last streetcar lines were removed in many american regions, for instance, but also a decade of well intentioned attempts at civic/public realm renewal. the 1970s were totally downhill.

i don't know that this is supposed to be a discussion about what different like, american urban history 101 development eras are.

Agreed. I chose the 1960s for this reason.

The pre-war policies ended in the 1950s, but those decisions didn't manifest until the late-60s.

[Chef]

Minneapolis had some development in the '30s. As you go south in south Minneapolis you can see it because suddenly the houses become much smaller. It is sort of like the real estate version of tree rings. Here is an example, people think these are post war houses but most were built in 1931 - '32:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9201...7i13312!8i6656

[Hudson11]

If you're looking for a major cultural shift, the 1950s is the decade to be concerned with. New architecture, new places to live and ways of getting around, new music in rock and roll, etc...

[Xelebes]

Furthermore, the solutions to improvement of cities were not readily apparent in the 40s and 50s as pollution from coal and other dirty fuels was still rife.