The "me-too" movement

[James 22]

Originally Posted by Franco401

A quick glance at the front page of the totally-reputable publication you've quoted will show them to be ultra-conservative. Denying Trump's crimes, etc. The article in question is entirely based on the ludicrous premise, with no supporting evidence, that the promotion of diversity (another evil that must be destroyed) is tied to metoo, which it is not. But even if it was, let me spell something out for all the pigs in here who feel the need to attack victims from coming forward.

People being mildly inconvenienced, or having to listen to women rant about sexuality at your precious award show, or some entirely-made-up story about art censorship, is a price that is very much worth paying if it means making sexual assault and abuse of power a thing of the past.

Can it really be made a thing of the past though? What does that mean? Do you mean that it should be illegal? I thought it already was. Maybe the definition of sexual assault needs to be updated and laws toughened... oh wait we did that already in a big way. Maybe what you're looking for is to have laws against people causing any form of psychological harm to others, such as offending them verbally as well as any form of unwanted physical contact.

I for one think this would be going too far. I think our laws are fairly repressive as is and making more laws is not the answer. People are admittedly uncaring and mean to each other fairly regularly in ways which don't necessarily break the law, but I see this as a byproduct of modern life in diverse places/large cities where the sense of community is not really a thing anymore. Maybe if we regained a better sense of community, we wouldn't treat one another like crap. Repressive laws and witch hunts can't make people respect each other and only foster fear and resentment.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Franco401

A quick glance at the front page of the totally-reputable publication you've quoted will show them to be ultra-conservative. Denying Trump's crimes, etc. The article in question is entirely based on the ludicrous premise, with no supporting evidence, that the promotion of diversity (another evil that must be destroyed) is tied to metoo, which it is not. But even if it was, let me spell something out for all the pigs in here who feel the need to attack victims from coming forward.

People being mildly inconvenienced, or having to listen to women rant about sexuality at your precious award show, or some entirely-made-up story about art censorship, is a price that is very much worth paying if it means making sexual assault and abuse of power a thing of the past.

I’m in 100% agreement. Well said. And I never posted the story about art censorship as something that is tangibly happening. It was more of a fear about something I had not considered that goes beyond MeToo to certain extremist elements of society that want to sanitize history. The inclination to sanitize the past is one of the major problems when it comes to issues of sexual abuse. My mother knew something happened to me but chose to live in denial.

I regret posting my article if for no other reason than it gave an excuse to idiots who saw it as a green light to shit all over the entire movement. Again, it’s not all or nothing. There will be missteps along the way. That does nothing to invalidate the much needed progress being made.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Before going off on a big rant you should actually read the article. There's nothing she said that she didn't back up. It's all been in the news. And let me spell something out for you. Two wrongs don't make a right and I don't care if that triggers you or not.

Her argument is nothing more than a rehash of conservative talking points over the last 20 years about quotas and the wrongness of empowering the disenfranchised. It’s simply using MeToo as a podium to spout the same old tired BS about the free market and the dangers of a woman or someone unqualified (because those are the only types of people who aspire to fill these positions) taking a job from a man. It’s sexist and racist and bigoted on its face. There’s nothing of substance. Only fear and what if scenarios that stretch the limits of credulity.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by James 22

Can it really be made a thing of the past though? What does that mean? Do you mean that it should be illegal? I thought it already was. Maybe the definition of sexual assault needs to be updated and laws toughened... oh wait we did that already in a big way. Maybe what you're looking for is to have laws against people causing any form of psychological harm to others, such as offending them verbally as well as any form of unwanted physical contact.

I for one think this would be going too far. I think our laws are fairly repressive as is and making more laws is not the answer. People are admittedly uncaring and mean to each other fairly regularly in ways which don't necessarily break the law, but I see this as a byproduct of modern life in diverse places/large cities where the sense of community is not really a thing anymore. Maybe if we regained a better sense of community, we wouldn't treat one another like crap. Repressive laws and witch hunts can't make people respect each other and only foster fear and resentment.

Your line of thinking sounds awfully similar to a recently departed forumer. I hope that is not the case and that your second post does not go down the rabbit hole any further.

[James 22]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Your line of thinking sounds awfully similar to a recently departed forumer. I hope that is not the case and that your second post does not go down the rabbit hole any further.

Not sure what you're referring to, but I don't like the insinuation that I should not express my opinions. I just want to find out what Franko401 believes is the way our society should go about making sexual assault and abuse of power a thing of the past. These are already against the law, and laws have been toughened recently. Going further would be pretty repressive and authoritarian imo.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Her argument is nothing more than a rehash of conservative talking points over the last 20 years about quotas and the wrongness of empowering the disenfranchised. It’s simply using MeToo as a podium to spout the same old tired BS about the free market and the dangers of a woman or someone unqualified (because those are the only types of people who aspire to fill these positions) taking a job from a man. It’s sexist and racist and bigoted on its face. There’s nothing of substance. Only fear and what if scenarios that stretch the limits of credulity.

"Disenfranchised"? She doesn't even mention that. As for quotas she explains with numerous great examples of why this will be a disaster. People have hijacked the MeToo movement to go after white males. When it first started years ago it was all about being sexually abused by someone who held power over you including relatives. It had nothing to do with race. What stretches the limits of credulity is you thinking that imposing quotas will have no negative impacts on our economy. No one is saying women, blacks, etc. should not have equal opportunity but I guess you're saying fuck merit.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by someone123

Another weakness in the arguments I've seen from Peterson is that he doesn't really explain why the traits that make people successful work the way they do (though admittedly in some hostile interviews it's hard to get complicated arguments out at all).

Is agreeableness a necessarily negative trait when it comes to a career, or is it only negative because of a culture that is in place that could be changed without harming productivity?

I have seen machismo stuff in workplaces that only really appeals to alpha male personalities and puts everyone else off. Yet it had nothing to do with the job that was being done. It existed only as a cultural artifact sanctioned by the people in charge, people who probably didn't think much of it one way or the other.

I am not convinced that competitiveness is inherently better to promote in a wide array of businesses than collaboration, or that some places that are only competitive can't have separate outlets for both kinds of activity.

There are other kinds of traits that are necessary for productivity. For example if you're a construction worker you might need to be able to do heavy manual labour, and removing that requirement from a hiring process would result in lower productivity.

I have seen a lot of very smart people debate him and none have brought up any points as well thought out as these. I agree and think he has that evolutionary psychologist tendency to see every trait as ideal to competitiveness/survival. That said overall I agree with his primary criticism of group politics. Though I don't see it leading to Gulags.

[cornholio]

Read a few things and just want to say that I find the concept of #metoo disgusting and anti social. It makes life worse. Its this style of pushing repressive progressives that I hate above all else. It has made places like Norway, Sweden etc worse to live in. Its doing the same in Canada. Its nothing more then a extreme minority, vocal minority, that only has influence because our societies freedom of speech has been restricted in several areas. That allows these sorts of vocal minorities to take on certain topics and do their thing un opposed which is good for no one.

I still dont understand what the problem is or why they are supported. We live in a equal and just society. We have stringent laws that in fact are too stringent in many areas and need reform. I just hope Canada politically changes direction soon. I am quite enjoying my life in a part of Europe where regressive progressives has not taken hold yet. Life is good. Hope Canada can make a u turn.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

"Disenfranchised"? She doesn't even mention that. As for quotas she explains with numerous great examples of why this will be a disaster. People have hijacked the MeToo movement to go after white males. When it first started years ago it was all about being sexually abused by someone who held power over you including relatives. It had nothing to do with race. What stretches the limits of credulity is you thinking that imposing quotas will have no negative impacts on our economy. No one is saying women, blacks, etc. should not have equal opportunity but I guess you're saying fuck merit.

Where in the MeToo movement have quotas been mentioned? Oh, right... nowhere. I’m not against merit, I’m against people pretending that women and people of colour intrinsically have none. Because that’s the root of the argument: that white men are always the most qualified.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Read a few things and just want to say that I find the concept of #metoo disgusting and anti social. It makes life worse. Its this style of pushing repressive progressives that I hate above all else. It has made places like Norway, Sweden etc worse to live in. Its doing the same in Canada. Its nothing more then a extreme minority, vocal minority, that only has influence because our societies freedom of speech has been restricted in several areas. That allows these sorts of vocal minorities to take on certain topics and do their thing un opposed which is good for no one.

I still dont understand what the problem is or why they are supported. We live in a equal and just society. We have stringent laws that in fact are too stringent in many areas and need reform. I just hope Canada politically changes direction soon. I am quite enjoying my life in a part of Europe where regressive progressives has not taken hold yet. Life is good. Hope Canada can make a u turn.

The problem is rape and sexual abuse. If you can’t see that it’s a problem that exists then you might be a part of the problem. Those who enable or deny reality help perpetrators thrive. Not wanting to talk about it is the same as silencing victims and wanting abuse to remain hidden in the shadows.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Read a few things and just want to say that I find the concept of #metoo disgusting and anti social. It makes life worse. Its this style of pushing repressive progressives that I hate above all else. It has made places like Norway, Sweden etc worse to live in. Its doing the same in Canada. Its nothing more then a extreme minority, vocal minority, that only has influence because our societies freedom of speech has been restricted in several areas. That allows these sorts of vocal minorities to take on certain topics and do their thing un opposed which is good for no one.

I still dont understand what the problem is or why they are supported. We live in a equal and just society. We have stringent laws that in fact are too stringent in many areas and need reform. I just hope Canada politically changes direction soon. I am quite enjoying my life in a part of Europe where regressive progressives has not taken hold yet. Life is good. Hope Canada can make a u turn.

What the hell are you rambling on about? In a thread where the topic is sexual abuse? U-turn back to the good old days of the casting couch, wolf whistles and unrelenting unwanted sexual banter in the workplace?

What is it about forumers that have "corn" in their usernames? Is "corn" an old English synonym for callousness?

On the other hand, I have heard that cornhole is a colloquialism for anus.

A New Survey Finds 81 Percent Of Women Have Experienced Sexual Harassment (NPR)

Even if you want to quibble about the definition and the proportions, this is most definitely NOT ok.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What the hell are you rambling on about? In a thread where the topic is sexual abuse? U-turn back to the good old days of the casting couch, wolf whistles and unrelenting unwanted sexual banter in the workplace?

What is it about forumers that have "corn" in their usernames? Is "corn" an old English synonym for callousness?

On the other hand, I have heard that cornhole is a colloquialism for anus.

A New Survey Finds 81 Percent Of Women Have Experienced Sexual Harassment (NPR)

Even if you want to quibble about the definition and the proportions, this is most definitely NOT ok.

We can’t let radical feminists enslave white men by demanding not to be sexually harrassed and abused! It’s disgusting and anti social!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

We can’t let radical feminists enslave white men by demanding not to be sexually harrassed and abused! It’s disgusting and anti social!

Will all perceive that you are being sarcastic?

[MolsonExport]

It's Doadyan. (In other words, sarcastic).

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Will all perceive that you are being sarcastic?

I welcome more posts on the evils of MeToo because of quotas and hurt feelings and Communism and gulags and Evil Feminism. What if we all become eunuchs enslaved to a Supreme Matriarch? What if they stop making Jell'O pudding because of Bill Cosby? I love Jell'O pudding and Fat Albert!!!

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by James 22

Not sure what you're referring to, but I don't like the insinuation that I should not express my opinions. I just want to find out what Franko401 believes is the way our society should go about making sexual assault and abuse of power a thing of the past. These are already against the law, and laws have been toughened recently. Going further would be pretty repressive and authoritarian imo.

I'm guessing this was our old friend since the mods banned him pretty quickly. Can they see IP addresses or something?

[333609543]

My two cents:

I think the metoo movement is a largely good movement, especially in the entertainment industry where big names have so much power over employment opportunities and promotion. In a place where people have lots of power with no checks and/or balances (both men & women), they tend to abuse it. This has been shown with the disgusting human beings harvey weinstein and bill cosby. In other areas of profession sexual harrassment is definitely prevalent however the regular workplace is not as ruthless as the entertainment industry and people who do sexually harrass or assault others are almost guaranteed to be punished.

I feel that some of the movement has stepped out of its bohnds by expanding the definitions of sexual harrassment and assault beyond what they really are. Where sexual assault is more well defined (No unwanted intentional contact/actions involving sexualized areas of the body; breasts, groin, buttocks, upper thighs, midriff/belly, feet [in some cases], kissing [mouth/lips], licking [anywhere], feel free to let me know if I've missed any.)
Sexual Harrassment I feel is very unclear, no boundaries have been set and there's a growing tendency for unforgiveness to honest mistakes in peoples' speech and everyday interaction. Of course making hints referring to a specific person in the workplace or mentioning them explicitly is out of bounds, inappropriate and arguably morally reprehensible, I have noticed there are no real boundaries to what sexual harrassment entails (excluding the obvious).

That's the only part of the movement that I'm really somewhat objecting to, since I have no forgiveness at all in regards to sexual assault, rape, and molestation. And people in the workplace who make distasteful comments about or related to people that they don't know particularily well (joke or complimentary; edit: or insult [inexcusable in any case]) are already seen as reprehensible people in general.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by 333609543

My two cents:

I think the metoo movement is a largely good movement, especially in the entertainment industry where big names have so much power over employment opportunities and promotion. In a place where people have lots of power with no checks and/or balances (both men & women), they tend to abuse it. This has been shown with the disgusting human beings harvey weinstein and bill cosby. In other areas of profession sexual harrassment is definitely prevalent however the regular workplace is not as ruthless as the entertainment industry and people who do sexually harrass or assault others are almost guaranteed to be punished.

I feel that some of the movement has stepped out of its bohnds by expanding the definitions of sexual harrassment and assault beyond what they really are. Where sexual assault is more well defined (No unwanted intentional contact/actions involving sexualized areas of the body; breasts, groin, buttocks, upper thighs, midriff/belly, feet [in some cases], kissing [mouth/lips], licking [anywhere], feel free to let me know if I've missed any.)
Sexual Harrassment I feel is very unclear, no boundaries have been set and there's a growing tendency for unforgiveness to honest mistakes in peoples' speech and everyday interaction. Of course making hints referring to a specific person in the workplace or mentioning them explicitly is out of bounds, inappropriate and arguably morally reprehensible, I have noticed there are no real boundaries to what sexual harrassment entails (excluding the obvious).

That's the only part of the movement that I'm really somewhat objecting to, since I have no forgiveness at all in regards to sexual assault, rape, and molestation. And people in the workplace who make distasteful comments about or related to people that they don't know particularily well (joke or complimentary; edit: or insult [inexcusable in any case]) are already seen as reprehensible people in general.

That seems like a fair assessment. I think we are playing catch up and that sexual harassment will remain a grey area for awhile. So much depends on the individual too. I know people that get away with it because they are flirtatious and have a joking personality. Women don't tend to get offended because they don't take it seriously. It also helps if the guy is good looking. If someone else were to make those same comments they would be viewed much differently. As with most things in life it is hard to fit everything and everyone into one box.

[technomad]

ruh roh...


https://twitter.com/CandiceMalcolm/s..._src=twsrc^tfw

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by technomad

ruh roh...


https://twitter.com/CandiceMalcolm/s..._src=twsrc^tfw

Curious to see what he says in response. I can't really comment based on nothing but a Twitter post. If true then he's in trouble. I wouldn't put it past his detractors making this up though.