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  #161  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 1:26 AM
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I just realized how old-school Austin I am for saying Ed Bluestein!
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  #162  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikey711MN View Post
This will be handled most curiously along US 183 as it is primarily limited-access south of MLK. Just speculating here, but on this and other routes, you'll probably see a mix of tolled mainlanes and free "thru" FR's (as in the examples above).
In this situation, I'm guessing the Houston BW8 model will be utilized. The existing lanes will be converted to frontage and all thru lanes will be tolled. If the area in the middle is not large enough to accommodate the new thru lanes, then the new frontage roads will be built and the existing lanes will be improved to freeway status. Nothing will have altered, other than the frontage roads would be moved out a few feet from present position, paid for by the toll authority. Currently, south of MLK is essentially frontage road - at best.
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  #163  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 7:09 AM
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In this situation, I'm guessing the Houston BW8 model will be utilized. The existing lanes will be converted to frontage and all thru lanes will be tolled. If the area in the middle is not large enough to accommodate the new thru lanes, then the new frontage roads will be built and the existing lanes will be improved to freeway status. Nothing will have altered, other than the frontage roads would be moved out a few feet from present position, paid for by the toll authority. Currently, south of MLK is essentially frontage road - at best.
I generally agree, but again, if there exists a diamond interchange now at some location, i.e. non-tolled limited access, this would mean that any future development would have to include that same level of access. To simply shift out the FR's and tie them to controlled intersections would be, in effect, eliminating a level of access that was once free.

Using MLK/FM 969 as an example where there currently exists this configuration, I would speculate based on what I've seen on the CTTS thus far that FR's would have to provide free movements both to turn on to MLK from US 183 and go through the intersection uncontrolled. There is a hodge-podge of this all along the US 183 corridor.

Conversely, US 290E is a non-issue: simply bump out the FR's and construct tolled mainlanes as you've described.
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  #164  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 7:46 AM
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If the construction of the freeway portion of 183 between 290 and IH 35 was any example of what is about to happen, trying to get anywhere on the eastside on 183 is going to be a longterm nightmare. I am especially dreading the mess that is bound to happen as construction ramps up for the new 183/71 interchange and the new bridge accross the river. Getting from 71 to Airport Blvd. and Cesar Chavez/7th Street is going to be interesting as well. Oh, joy!! Five years of hell and then I get to pay to drive on the damn roads. I'm guessing 130 will become the choice route to the airport for most folks living north of 183, and it is likely to become my choice for my commute to work near Braker and 35.
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  #165  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
If the construction of the freeway portion of 183 between 290 and IH 35 was any example of what is about to happen, trying to get anywhere on the eastside on 183 is going to be a longterm nightmare. I am especially dreading the mess that is bound to happen as construction ramps up for the new 183/71 interchange and the new bridge accross the river. Getting from 71 to Airport Blvd. and Cesar Chavez/7th Street is going to be interesting as well. Oh, joy!! Five years of hell and then I get to pay to drive on the damn roads. I'm guessing 130 will become the choice route to the airport for most folks living north of 183, and it is likely to become my choice for my commute to work near Braker and 35.
I'm sure Mopacs can relate with you, after having to put up with the entire 183 expansion and associated toll roads for lord knows how long.
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  #166  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 5:08 PM
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I grew up in NW Austin and have lived in this area for all of my life, minus a year in central Austin and two years in DFW.

The expansion of 183 was a small part of my life that seemed to go on forever with ups and downs. Businesses would close down or be demolished, and we would expect new construction to be happening soon, and then nothing. Just when we thought the extension would make it past Anderson Mill, then they delay construction due to a lack of funds. The opening of various tiny little two-mile sections over the years. The old Dairy Queen where I had my first job, where one of my old friends worked next door at the Pizza Hut, now has a frontage practically going right through the front of it now. The opening of the viaduct section was incredible, as was the opening of the direct connector from NB 35 to 183. Waiting in those left turn lanes sucked. Of course, I'd really like to have some words with the designer who made it only one lane, as well as the morons who drive so slow on it and clog up traffic for half a mile behind them.

Then came the toll roads. As much as I hate having to pay the tolls, I will have to say that the speed with which they were built was just incredible, especially after having been through the 183 expansion timeline. It was incredible watching the number of people on the job site, and all the resources that could be poured into it at once. With 183, it seemed like people were just standing around and very little was happening by comparison.

I think toll roads have their place in booming cities like Austin. The only problem is the disparity between those who have to pay and those who get them for "free." I'm not sure what the best solution is, but somehow I think that all the highways should be tolled in the metro area, but at a lower rate. Anyone who uses a highway would be paying, regardless of whether it's new or old, and those funds would stay within the area to build new highways and to reconstruct existing ones. It'll never happen though.
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  #167  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JAM View Post
I'm sure Mopacs can relate with you, after having to put up with the entire 183 expansion and associated toll roads for lord knows how long.
Oh, very much so... Traffic was horrendous for many years both NB and SB on 183. This was especially the case in the latter years before the freeway stretch between Spicewood/McNeil and 620 opened (Spring 2004). The backups at the Anderson Mill intersection were incredible at times. Thats just part of living in the 'burbs my whole life. Traffic flow on the new freeway section literally cut my morning commute in half (40 to 20 minutes).

The segment-by-segment expansion of 183 took approx 17 years to complete (plus 3 more years for 183a/SH45 segment). I believe the timeline went something like this:

Summer 1989 - Stretch between Burnet and Loop 360 completed - approx 1 mile. Construction began in 1987, and Mopac interchange fully complete in 1990.
Fall 1992 - Burnet Road overpass completed... approx 1/4 mile (cleared up a MAJOR bottleneck)
Summer 1994 - Loop 360 to Duval Rd opens (approx 1 3/4 miles)
Summer 1996 - Duval Rd to Spicewood Springs/McNeil (approx 2 miles)
Summer 1996 - Viaduct from Burnet Road Lamar Blvd complete (approx 2 miles....overpass at Lamar was always there, but reconstructed)
Winter 1997 - Viaduct coninuation from Lamar to just E of I-35 completed (approx 1 mile)
Fall 1997 - Spicewood Springs/McNeil/Pond Springs overpass completed (approx 1/2 mile)
Spring 2003 (approx) - Overpass at Bolm Rd completed.
Spring 2004 - Spicewood Springs -to - 620 completed (approx 2 1/2 miles)
Winter 2007 (approx) - I-35 to Manor Rd/Springdale opens (approx 1 1/2 miles).
Spring 2007 - 620/45 to 1431 (approx 4 miles) - 1st phase of 183a tollway through Cedar Park completed, which ties into the freeway at 620/SH45.

So there you go... 16 miles in 20 years!

SH 130 ... approx 50 miles in 4 years!
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  #168  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 5:14 PM
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^^^ I agree with everything you said.
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  #169  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 5:21 PM
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Not many people who live on that side of the city along 183 are going to be able to afford to use that road and traffic on the Eastside will become a nightmare... They should keep that part free...
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  #170  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jdawgboy View Post
Not many people who live on that side of the city along 183 are going to be able to afford to use that road and traffic on the Eastside will become a nightmare... They should keep that part free...
I don't know - 183 (Ed Bluestein portion) is mostly an airport arterial road these days, and to a lesser extent, an office park/warehouse corridor. The truly poor people who live near 183 probably stick to the east-west roads or perhaps don't even leave their neighborhood.
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  #171  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 5:51 PM
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Hey Mopacs,

Where did you get those dates for the construction progress in the late 80s to early 90s? Or are you just guessing from memory? I couldn't remember the exact dates, and texasfreeway doesn't have them either that I'm aware of.
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  #172  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 6:13 PM
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Hey Mopacs,

Where did you get those dates for the construction progress in the late 80s to early 90s? Or are you just guessing from memory? I couldn't remember the exact dates, and texasfreeway doesn't have them either that I'm aware of.
Got it from my brain! Those dates are imprinted in my head... I have old newspaper clippings, along with old photos/videos I took around the time each segment opened. This was for my own personal documentation. In fact I have a clipping from the Hill Country News circa 1987, discussing the groundbreaking of the 183/Mopac interchange project. Its interesting to go back and watch them and see the dramatic changes over the years.
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  #173  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mopacs View Post
Got it from my brain! Those dates are imprinted in my head... I have old newspaper clippings, along with old photos/videos I took around the time each segment opened. This was for my own personal documentation. In fact I have a clipping from the Hill Country News circa 1987, discussing the groundbreaking of the 183/Mopac interchange project. Its interesting to go back and watch them and see the dramatic changes over the years.
That's cool! Your memory is more vivid than mine! I remember all of the construction over the years, but I have a hard time pinning it down to a certain year. I wish I had thought to take photos of the city back in those days, as it would have been very interesting to go back to today, just like the newspaper clippings. My parents have lived in Austin since 1970, but unfortunately they never thought to take many photos either. When I got my first digital camera in 2000, I drove around parts of the city just taking photos out the windshield, so I would have something to look back on. I need to do that again real soon--things are changing pretty quickly!
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  #174  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jdawgboy View Post
Not many people who live on that side of the city along 183 are going to be able to afford to use that road and traffic on the Eastside will become a nightmare... They should keep that part free...
This talking point keeps popping up like a weed, and I'm the weed-whacker.

Folks, those poor people largely live INSIDE US183, and when they do drive (they don't drive as much as Sal Costello's suburban liar brigade would have you believe), they largely drive into town, not around it.
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  #175  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 8:01 PM
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Still, Im making a point. and People who live along that road do use it. lets see I know 4 people who live in that area, who are financially not well off, and who use 183 daily to get to work and back. I cant believe anybody who would say nobody uses that road who lives within a mile of it, that is just plain not true. I think its a huge mistake.... That is my opinion and im not changing it anytime soon.
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  #176  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 8:46 PM
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Obviously I'm talking in aggregate - but there is no way a substantial percentage of the area's economically disadvantaged are travelling long enough distances AROUND the city to make tolls remotely an issue. You're making the same mistake the nicer followers of Costello do - projection (because YOU drive around the city, everybody must; because YOU don't ride the bus, nobody does; etc.)
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  #177  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 8:47 PM
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And don't forget - the TRULY economically disadvantaged don't drive around the city on 183 because they can't afford a car. Toll roads are a baby step towards a more rational transportation funding system which might in the long-run preserve more money for transit.
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  #178  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2007, 8:53 PM
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I agree with M1, but...

So even if 4 people use it whats the big deal?? The access roads should have equal or more capacity at no cost... there is no loose situation for them.

Being this is a gateway road from the airport to major employment centers cleaning this stretch up will go a LONG way for regional business growth, development and relocation... providing more trickle down service jobs for those less fortunate.
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  #179  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2007, 7:28 AM
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Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
Obviously I'm talking in aggregate - but there is no way a substantial percentage of the area's economically disadvantaged are travelling long enough distances AROUND the city to make tolls remotely an issue. You're making the same mistake the nicer followers of Costello do - projection (because YOU drive around the city, everybody must; because YOU don't ride the bus, nobody does; etc.)
Perhaps "economically challenged" might be a more useful way to conceptualize the issue. I have not run a credit report on those with whom I share the roadways during my commute, but there are a lot of us out there every day travelling AROUND the city to those employment sweet spots that somebody else mentioned in an earlier post. Unless most of us are "millionaire next door "types, or unless I am projecting because I am not a millionaire next door and drive a shabby older vehicle, I think we are going to get screwed over with the tolls. There are more economically disadvantaged and/or economically challenged people driving in Austin than there are riding the bus by a long shot. I am not sure I am the one doing the projecting with regards to this topic.
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  #180  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2007, 1:25 PM
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austlar1,

I argue with your definition of "economically challenged" - people who are travelling around the city on 183 are mostly not in the lowest quintile, for instance. If you want to redefine "economically challenged" to anybody without a shiny new car, you've set a pretty low bar.
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