Atlanta Project Thread IV

[Chris Creech]

Originally Posted by Terminus

As BeltLine explores transit feasibility they seem to be coming to conclusions that might support the aforementioned transit concept. Most of us with any sense of how transit works knows that the corridor today does not justify transit on its entirety, and will not for decades.

But isn't part of the concept of the Beltline that it lead and form an anchor for development? It seems that's always the catch-22. You build the transit when the land is fairly cheap and there's fewer infrastructure complications, and residents and local politicos are more likely to support it. Or you wait until it's "needed" and the land is then sky-high and you have a whole infrastructure network to deal with, and residents that will fight you because of the noise, inconvenience and because they don't want the neighborhood to change.

[Fiorenza]

Very succinct observation. We should support and fund such obviously good and community-oriented projects as the Beltline, even though we will not see anywhere near the full potential in our lifetimes.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Chris Creech

But isn't part of the concept of the Beltline that it lead and form an anchor for development? It seems that's always the catch-22. You build the transit when the land is fairly cheap and there's fewer infrastructure complications, and residents and local politicos are more likely to support it. Or you wait until it's "needed" and the land is then sky-high and you have a whole infrastructure network to deal with, and residents that will fight you because of the noise, inconvenience and because they don't want the neighborhood to change.

Well to add to your argument.... further

The Beltline is more than just a transit program. In fact only about a third of the total end cost is transit related. Some areas couldn't support the density development going in without transit.

So there is a catch-22... with transit the land is more valuable (and provides higher tax proceeds) without it across the whole region it has to be zoned less dense (and never has that taxable value).

The other side is... Many of the redevelopment sites to some extent or another are brownfields. They have remained mostly undeveloped and untouched for two main reasons: 1) There is a big expense to cleaning them up properly so they are suitable for development again 2) Even if a developer cleans up one brownfield on their own.... the value of what they develop and sell is held down by neighboring brownfield sites. Therefore if you come up with a Beltline plan to clean up all of the brownfields within the TAD developing one site becomes more marketable, since buyers know future areas will be cleaned up as well.

However, I must say.... This is also one problem/uphill battle for the Beltline to try to gain funding for the sales tax for regional transportation projects. The original intent was to take care of regional and in large part intercounty transportation. In many places in Atlanta the main roads (and in some cases only roads) to pass a county border are state or federal highways.

The Beltline is targeted at fostering residential neighborhood growth.

However, on a good note.... there are some projects that make the Beltline usable for some aspects of regional transportation and there are some projects that can make the Beltline cheaper to build in the long run. This is partly why they are restructuring their proposals to include Atlanta streetcars, which to be honest is kind of starting to circumvent the point of the tax.

I would focus on segments of the Beltline that could potentially be used by portions of a Cobb County LRT line. An Armour Yard Marta station would decrease the length the Beltline would need to travel to connect to MARTA.
The northeast segment and a small connection to the East-West streetcar could be pitched as a connecting point/extension of the planned Emory LRT.

That alone is a kick-start for Beltline transit would decrease the cost to the Beltline TAD to make building the rest more sustainable.

Sorry.... Im sort of trailing off topic

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

Interesting. I wonder what the soccer players and fans think about it.

Both fans are fine with it.

[shivtim]

^ Seattle Sounders averaged over 36,000 fans a game in 2010.
I would guess an Atlanta team would probably draw similarly to the Houston Dynamo, which averaged 17,300 per game.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by shivtim

^ Seattle Sounders averaged over 36,000 fans a game in 2010.
I would guess an Atlanta team would probably draw similarly to the Houston Dynamo, which averaged 17,300 per game.

Yeah, the youth soccer leagues do have a lot of kids.

My comment wasn't to slam Seattle, but to slam soccer - the most boring sport this side of golf and women's basketball.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by shivtim

^ Seattle Sounders averaged over 36,000 fans a game in 2010.
I would guess an Atlanta team would probably draw similarly to the Houston Dynamo, which averaged 17,300 per game.

Soccer has the potential to be really marketable here.... the key is putting up a upfront investment in attracting key groups...which admittedly might be too expensive or daunting to some groups.

I live close to Parkview High School in the Lilburn area and across the street from the school is the Gwinnett Soccer Association (which is not county owned or operated but privately operated). It is almost scary how big it has become. There are actually aloooot kids playing soccer out here. Probably more so than baseball, football, and basketball.

There is definitely alot of people (and in no small part... girls in particular) growing up playing soccer, even if it isn't widely watched society-wide.

Not too far away is the county's Harmony Grove Soccer Complex, another private Soccer Academy, and fields at Bethesda Park.

Of course this isn't to say there haven't been failures trying to introduce soccer. I think ultimately it will be a matter of how and when to introduce it.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Fairley recently the dekalb killed plans for funding ex gm doraville plant redevelopment now doraville itself has presented a final plan for the site
it has to be approved by the doraville city council
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/dorav...an-860016.html
seeing as georgia's economy is lagging behind the nations i worry that
the city council will vote it down cause they cant find a way to pay for the gm plant purchase. but then i'm a glass half empty kind of guy

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Pessimistic Observer

Fairley recently the dekalb killed plans for funding ex gm doraville plant redevelopment now doraville itself has presented a final plan for the site
it has to be approved by the doraville city council
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/dorav...an-860016.html
seeing as georgia's economy is lagging behind the nations i worry that
the city council will vote it down cause they cant find a way to pay for the gm plant purchase. but then i'm a glass half empty kind of guy

No, not at all....

Some things get lost in translation when reading the news...

The LCI study initiative has been studied and existed. The main new thing to look at from this article as far as civic matters go... they are looking at building a new connector between Buford Highway and Peachtree Industrial Blvd as apart of the transportation tax referendum and the presented the LCI plan. The rest hasn't been detailed how they plan to pay for things and is a general plan to guide future government and developer decisions.

The rest is just planning, zoning, and development plans for government planners to take into consideration.

What was voted down previously..... Was Dekalb Co. taking a loan from stimulus funds to buy the site from GM and help prepare the site for a private developer, which would jump start the development.

The site is an attractive redevelopment location... it won't go away... they key questions is.... how it will be developed? When it will happen? who will need to pay for what? What will the tax proceeds and liabilities be to the county/doraville?

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

My comment wasn't to slam Seattle, but to slam soccer - the most boring sport this side of golf and women's basketball.

Regardless of your opinion of the sport, the Sounders croud numbers outdrew the Braves by a healthy margin. MLS is expanding in both the US and Canada. Even if you think it's boring, it clearly is catching on and is a profitable sport. I think Atlanta would benefit from an MLS team.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Regardless of your opinion of the sport, the Sounders croud numbers outdrew the Braves by a healthy margin. MLS is expanding in both the US and Canada. Even if you think it's boring, it clearly is catching on and is a profitable sport. I think Atlanta would benefit from an MLS team.

national consesus is that atlanta is a bad sports town
atlanta may benefit from getting a mls team but I
cant say said mls team will benefit from being in atlanta
as apposed to being almost anywhere else

[shivtim]

I see your point, and indeed the Thrashers are struggling for attendance. But MLS has been trying to expand into the Southeast. Atlanta and Miami are the obvious choices. They also happen to be the largest US metros that don't already have a team. All of the soccer games held at the GA Dome have had more than 50,000 in attendance.

*If* the Falcons build a new open air stadium, why not design it right from the start so that it can easily accomodate and MLS team?

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Pessimistic Observer

national consesus is that atlanta is a bad sports town
atlanta may benefit from getting a mls team but I
cant say said mls team will benefit from being in atlanta
as apposed to being almost anywhere else

I see where you are going with this... but remember the key is comparing different places

Most places in the U.S. that don't have a MLS you are introducing the idea of professional soccer. There will be somewhat of an uphill battle. It isn't in our culture to care about watching soccer that much.

However, when you consider who could be convinced to become interested in soccer.... All of those kids (and families) playing in recreation leagues all over town start to become really attractive.

As far as the national comments about Atlanta not being a sports town... they are almost completely based on our teams not winning championships. That isn't a reason to not locate somewhere... if anything that means it is an area ripe for any team that does well.

I also want to point out... attendance doesn't have to be comparable to MLB or the NFL for a sport to be profitable. It just has to know how much of an audience it can attract and adjust expenses and size of the an organization accordingly.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by Pessimistic Observer

Fairley recently the dekalb killed plans for funding ex gm doraville plant redevelopment now doraville itself has presented a final plan for the site
it has to be approved by the doraville city council
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/dorav...an-860016.html
seeing as georgia's economy is lagging behind the nations i worry that
the city council will vote it down cause they cant find a way to pay for the gm plant purchase. but then i'm a glass half empty kind of guy

As the plan's author, I can clarify that we prepared it to understand what the community's aspirations were for the site, and how to maximize connectivity to the greater Doraville community. It lays out a starting point to guide private development, but one that the City will have some power to control via the rezoning process. Nobody expects the GM site to be developed exactly as we envisioned, but something remarkably different (for example, a single-use, auto-oriented redevelopment, or a stadium) would have a very strong public policy against it; one that the City can use to turn down such proposal.

For more information visit our website at www.tunspan.com/doraville

[smArTaLlone]

On March 7, the center will hold three different events where it will provide an update to community stakeholders about the project’s funding, programming and the current status.

Most significantly, center officials are expected to announce they plan to break ground on the center this fall, which means that the new attraction would open in 2013.

Civil rights center sets fall groundbreaking | Atlanta Business Chronicle

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

As far as the national comments about Atlanta not being a sports town... they are almost completely based on our teams not winning championships. That isn't a reason to not locate somewhere... if anything that means it is an area ripe for any team that does well.

The Braves can't sell-out playoff games.

Easily, pound for pound, the worst sports city in the country.

Doesn't mean the MLS is a bad idea.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Regardless of your opinion of the sport, the Sounders croud numbers outdrew the Braves by a healthy margin. MLS is expanding in both the US and Canada. Even if you think it's boring, it clearly is catching on and is a profitable sport. I think Atlanta would benefit from an MLS team.

Oh I'm sure I am the only one who finds soccer boring to watch. That's not to say that I wouldn't want Atlanta to land an MLS team - of course that would be great. My earlier comment was a joke...there is no need to try to debate the excitement of soccer, it's not that serious.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

The Braves can't sell-out playoff games.

Easily, pound for pound, the worst sports city in the country.

Doesn't mean the MLS is a bad idea.

I am so tired of hearing about that playoff game that wasn't a sellout back in 199?. Some people need to let it go and move on - it doesn't define Atlanta's fan base and has no relevance today. For a real sports fan, Atlanta is a great city...for complainers who have only a passing interest in sports, it may not be so great.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

I am so tired of hearing about that playoff game that wasn't a sellout back in 199?. Some people need to let it go and move on - it doesn't define Atlanta's fan base and has no relevance today. For a real sports fan, Atlanta is a great city...for complainers who have only a passing interest in sports, it may not be so great.

how great of a city is it for the teams, franchises that build the teams, and investors that support the franchises

[shivtim]

http://saportareport.com/blog/2011/0...t-for-atlanta/
"...Another major drawback of the site is that it is about a 15 minute walk (and not a pleasant walk at that) from MARTA. By comparison, the Georgia Dome sits in between two MARTA stations each less than five minutes away. Perhaps there’s another location that could be better served by MARTA.

The Atlanta Falcons appear to be more interested in the availability of parking — surface parking at that — than being close to transit.

They would like to locate more tail-gating opportunities and envision 10,000 to 20,000 parking spaces surrounding the new stadium.

That’s an awful lot of land dedicated to parked cars for just seven to nine days a year. Nothing destroys an urban area more than acres and acres of vacant land dedicated to surface parking. As evidence, all one needs to do is go to the site of the former Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium next to Turner Field to see the negative impact of acres and acres of asphalt."