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  #5641  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by NewfBC View Post
You can't compare the small inter-city LRT line in Surrey to the Canada Line. LRT in Surrey is connecting 3 neighbourhoods together and to the Skytrain. The Canada line serves the cities of Richmond and Vancouver, connects to YVR. No comparison!

Ron.
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Anybody else want to take this one, or should I?
For starters, the first phase is an intra-city line because it doesn't travel beyond Surrey's borders, while the second phase—the Surrey-Langley segment—is more comparable to the Canada Line since it goes through three cities, each having densely-populated neighborhoods (Fleetwood, Cloverdale, Willowbrook etc.), not counting the ALR in between.

Secondly, Fraser Hwy bisects two-thirds of Surrey's north-south arterial roads, so having an Expo extension will cause a great shift on SoF's bus network. It's east-west service is severely lacking because of the ALR, sudden dead ends between arterials, and low-density corridors (there's almost no bus service along 96th, and no, the 388 and 501 on Port Kells do not count). Having an Expo Line backbone will make the bus network more grid-like instead of the current spoke-and-hub. An LRT on Fraser Hwy will not make a big difference practical wise to the region (other than for bringing developers), so the status quo will remain.
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  #5642  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 6:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Playing devils advocate, that could just have easily been a bus. LRT certainly has issues but irrational fear mongering bothers me. I could just eas easily say they once found a snake on SkyTrain so therefore SkyTrain is bad because it has snakes.
I'm starting to hate the whole "lol cars got hit by a train lrt bad" circlejerk.


I did not say that LRT is inherently bad. I'm saying that it's bad when it's done wrong. The C-Train driving on downtown streets always puts a risks on train-car accidents; Edmonton did it correctly on theirs because they are underground. You can say the same thing for Detroit's People Mover, which uses the same Mark I trains as SkyTrain and TTC's Scarborough Line, but Detroit built it purely as a vanity project that doesn't go anywhere it's supposed to. It's a total joke of a "system", but is LIM technology bad because of that?

Roger, since you live in Ottawa, what kinds of implementations OC Transpo did really poor on?
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  #5643  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 10:37 AM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post


I did not say that LRT is inherently bad. I'm saying that it's bad when it's done wrong. The C-Train driving on downtown streets always puts a risks on train-car accidents; Edmonton did it correctly on theirs because they are underground. You can say the same thing for Detroit's People Mover, which uses the same Mark I trains as SkyTrain and TTC's Scarborough Line, but Detroit built it purely as a vanity project that doesn't go anywhere it's supposed to. It's a total joke of a "system", but is LIM technology bad because of that?
Yeah I get that. Like I said, I could give a shit about the technology being used, just as long as it's modern and efficient (not horsecar or coal powered or some massive, strong, dumb guy with a limited vocabulary speaking in third person, pulling a sled with a rope), but when it comes to grade-separation, or lack thereof, then I got diarrhea.
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  #5644  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
Detroit built it purely as a vanity project that doesn't go anywhere it's supposed to. It's a total joke of a "system", but is LIM technology bad because of that?
Exactly my point. Every implementation has its flaws, and some more than others.

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Roger, since you live in Ottawa, what kinds of implementations OC Transpo did really poor on?
Lots. I'm not sure where to begin on this one. One big mistake that they are in the process of making is severely cutting back on bus service downtown under the assumption that everyone will transfer to the Confederation Line. I get that they can no longer provide a direct service from suburban neighbourhoods to downtown, but shortening the downtown routes to the nearest downtown station with the idea that people will take the train for 1 stop to get to their final destination is crazy. A downtown "metro" service doesn't replace downtown local buses, but instead supplements them.
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  #5645  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 4:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
For starters, the first phase is an intra-city line because it doesn't travel beyond Surrey's borders, while the second phase—the Surrey-Langley segment—is more comparable to the Canada Line since it goes through three cities, each having densely-populated neighborhoods (Fleetwood, Cloverdale, Willowbrook etc.), not counting the ALR in between.
And Whalley, Guildford, Newton, Fleetwood and Langley are projected to jump from 365,000 residents to 585,000, and KGB/104th specifically to 165k. The Canada Line's catchment is 128k (give or take 14,800 YVR commuters, airport employees and visitors included). Little rinky-dink tourist trams won't be nearly enough for that.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
One big mistake that they are in the process of making is severely cutting back on bus service downtown under the assumption that everyone will transfer to the Confederation Line. I get that they can no longer provide a direct service from suburban neighbourhoods to downtown, but shortening the downtown routes to the nearest downtown station with the idea that people will take the train for 1 stop to get to their final destination is crazy. A downtown "metro" service doesn't replace downtown local buses, but instead supplements them.
Ouch. Good thing TransLink knows better. Mostly.
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  #5646  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2018, 4:36 AM
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Two news articles about the LRT vs Skytrain debate.

Part 1: Opinion: LRT is all about Surrey's economic contempt for Vancouver

Part 2: Opinion: Rails in the street for Surrey LRT will only symbolize mobility

Some quotes:
Quote:
Municipal governments are, in a sense, isolationist, and the goals set out by one municipality for a project funded by regional taxpayers highlights this narrow paradigm.

Despite being one of the smallest and most compact major urban regions in North America in terms of geographic size, Metro Vancouver’s municipal officials have the enduring habit of failing to think regionally.
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“Streetcars that replace bus lines are not a mobility or access improvement. If you replace a bus with a streetcar on the same route, and make no other improvements, nobody will be able to get anywhere any faster than they could before,” acclaimed international transit planning consultant Jarrett Walker, who is based in Portland, wrote in 2009.

“Likewise, if you build a streetcar instead of a good bus line, that money you spend above the cost of the bus line is not helping anyone get anywhere any faster.”
Quote:
Ultimately, the whole debate on rail rapid transit in the South of Fraser should be about what kind of region we want to be as a whole.

Last edited by Waders; Sep 21, 2018 at 5:01 AM.
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  #5647  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2018, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Waders View Post
Kenneth Chan is bang on on this issue.

I’m not surprised that Tom Gill is denying that the “SkyTrain vs LRT” debate is the main topic right now, instead focusing on the handgun ban.

Some dumbass in the comments on one of the links thinks that having SkyTrain to Langley is a bad idea.

Quote:
It's a good thing Metro Vancouver is not amalgamated - like Toronto. They got Rob Ford tearing out bike lanes and setting back decade's worth of transit plans because he was elected by suburbanites with suburban ideals. Why should an urban centre be ruled by suburbanites? Meanwhile we still do coordinate services across the region in a very cooperative way.

Surrey wants to grow up and they are making urban decisions that are for the benefit of Surrey. But that's a good thing for the region too. It will help reduce the average commute by generating the critical mass of another true downtown and providing the opportunity for those south of the river to choose to stay there for work/live/play.

Is the goal to move people as fast as possible?

Wouldn't reducing the length of commutes and other trips be a better goal?

Look at those maps up there. Langley is a ridiculously long way away from Vancouver. Why encourage people to live out there and work in Vancouver by building SkyTrain to their doorstep? It will just weaken our urban containment and encourage more and more people to move further out with their car-dependent lifestyles. They may commute by SkyTrain but they'll drive for everything else. And they won't even wave when they bypass Surrey and inhibit the demand for jobs and amenities in Surrey itself. Metro Vancouver is still a fairly small city by world standards and, as pointed out, relatively compact. So why does our metro system reach farther out than most any in the world?

The transit layout in Surrey-Langley looks a lot like Vancouver-Burnaby-New Westminster in that regional plan. Reasonable distances to commute without having to cross the river. (But you still can.) Anything that helps urbanize Surrey's core faster and helps create neighbourhoods that function well by walking cycling and transit is a good thing.

LRT is the right choice.
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  #5648  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2018, 7:00 PM
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^^^But the amalgamated City of Toronto isn't all that big at 630.2 km². To put things in perspective, the City of Toronto is about the same area as the central swath of metro Vancouver between the Fraser/Pitt Rivers and Burrard Inlet/Indian Arm, so Surrey wouldn't be included (it would be like Scarborough).

A more accurate comparison would be to the City of Ottawa, which at 2,778 km² is only slightly larger than metro Vancouver at 2,700 km², though that doesn't include Gatineau, so even it isn't the best comparison either (metro Ottawa has an area of 5,716.00 km2).
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  #5649  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2018, 9:20 PM
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Even better, the Reddit page includes a comment about a 130-unit townhome complex right on the route - the exact same kind of development that LRT boosters want - and how it's being hounded by realtors who want to buy it out and build condos. Surrey First's "walkable neighbourhood" argument is garbage - all they really want is a Metrotown redevelopment for cheap.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
^^^But the amalgamated City of Toronto isn't all that big at 630.2 km². To put things in perspective, the City of Toronto is about the same area as the central swath of metro Vancouver between the Fraser/Pitt Rivers and Burrard Inlet/Indian Arm, so Surrey wouldn't be included (it would be like Scarborough).

A more accurate comparison would be to the City of Ottawa, which at 2,778 km² is only slightly larger than metro Vancouver at 2,700 km², though that doesn't include Gatineau, so even it isn't the best comparison either (metro Ottawa has an area of 5,716.00 km2).
Yeah, the weird thing about Vancouver is that all the water pushed it into a really odd shape that isn't really analogous to other cities. It looks wide and sprawling, but it's actually pretty compact.
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  #5650  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2018, 4:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Even better, the Reddit page includes a comment about a 130-unit townhome complex right on the route - the exact same kind of development that LRT boosters want - and how it's being hounded by realtors who want to buy it out and build condos. Surrey First's "walkable neighbourhood" argument is garbage - all they really want is a Metrotown redevelopment for cheap.
I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Quote:
Our family lives in a 130 unit townhouse complex smack dab on the LRT route. Realtors are making the rounds to get people to sell in an attempt to possibly clear it for a new, more dense housing project. Sure we'll move, for seven digits.

The LRT is a white elephant project that is a vanity vessel for Linda Hepner before she moves on. If they want to ram this bullshit down the city's throat, I'll move out on the fat pile of money that comes from getting away from the eventual traffic nightmare, and let the poor saps who move in afterwards deal with the consequences.
Link

When this project gets built and accidents occur on this line, Surrey will be the laughingstock of this region, while Langley will be cruising over Surrey streets on SkyTrain amusing itself from watching LRVs being stuck on an accident.
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  #5651  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2018, 12:52 AM
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20 September 2018

Rails in the Street for Surrey LRT Will Only Symbolize Mobility

Vancouver British Columbia - Portland's downtown urban revitalization is often linked to the presence of its streetcar system, and this is often cited by Surrey LRT supporters as a key example of how such street-level transit systems can revitalize cities.

But there is reason to believe that more is at play than simply laying down rail on the streets.

In 2012, Randal O'Toole, an urban and transportation issues analyst with the Cato Institute, went as far as calling streetcars as "the latest transportation fad" fuelled by recent US federal government policies.

While the streetcar is often credited for the creation of Portland's vibrant areas, specifically the Pearl District, O'Toole says most of the catalyst was from the City of Portland's program of handing out nearly a billion dollars in subsidies to property developers along the initial streetcar line to generate US$3.5 billion worth of property development.

Subsidies in the now-popular Pearl District alone reached US$435 million.

"Developers eagerly responded to these subsidies, transforming a railroad yard and warehouse area into the Pearl District's mid-rise condos, apartments, offices, shops, and restaurants. The South Waterfront District was an industrial area that developers transformed into high-rise offices and apartments," wrote O'Toole.

"Streetcar promoters never mention these subsidies. In 2003, Portland published a report on development-oriented transit implying that all of this new development was due to the streetcar, never mentioning the hundreds of millions of dollars in other subsidies provided to developers."

According to O'Toole, secondary factors like the micro brewery revolution and changing demographics had a much larger role in downtown Portland's revitalization than rail transit.

"The more appropriate lesson from the Portland experience is about subsidizing development and coordinating land use policies rather than simply building a streetcar," adds the Columbia University study.

"Other research suggests that rail investment alone is insufficient to produce benefits, and that appropriate local government policies, supportive zoning, and effective planning implementation tools must be in place for development to occur near stations. Other local policies are just as, if not more, important for achieving development goals."

Rails in the Street Symbolize Mobility

TransLink projects the planned $1.65 billion Surrey Newton-Guildford light rail transit line (SNG LRT) will have an end-to-end travel time of 27 minutes along its 10.5 kilometre long route, just two minutes shorter than the existing 96 B-Line running on the exact same route.

The proposed $1.95 billion Fraser Highway light rail transit line (FH LRT) will have an end-to-end travel time of 35 minutes along its 16 kilometre long route, only about five minutes faster than the temporary Fraser Highway B-Line that will be launched by the end of 2019 as a precursor to rail rapid transit.

"Streetcars that replace bus lines are not a mobility or access improvement. If you replace a bus with a streetcar on the same route, and make no other improvements, nobody will be able to get anywhere any faster than they could before," acclaimed international transit planning consultant Jarrett Walker, who is based in Portland, wrote in 2009.

"Likewise, if you build a streetcar instead of a good bus line, that money you spend above the cost of the bus line is not helping anyone get anywhere any faster."

Then in 2010 during a debate on the technology that should be used for the Broadway Extension, Walker countered UBC Professor Patrick Condon's pro-LRT arguments by stating that "the reason streetcars currently trigger investment is that rails in the street symbolize mobility. The development happens not just because of what will be in walking distance, but because the rails in the street suggest you'll be able to get to lots of places easily by rail. So rails in the street create redevelopment, which improves access. But they do that by offering an appearance of mobility. That may not be the same as actual mobility, in fact, it might be the opposite."

Walker went on to suggest that people are generally smart and practical, and they will use the best option they have based on its overall convenience determined largely by the speed of travel.

"I speculate that the current ability of streetcars to generate redevelopment, compared to what excellent bus service can do, will diminish as it becomes more and more obvious that buses often run faster and more reliably than streetcars in many real-world situations, particularly on busy urban arterial streets," said Walker.

But the following statement on the struggles of balancing the polarizing realms of idealism vs. realism in urban planning is perhaps the most important take away in Walker's blog, "Ideals are essential in planning. Great urban planning is not just about giving people what they want now, but inspiring them to want something better. Urban planners will always be accused of social engineering because most of them do want people to make better choices, as a result of having better options."

Walker furthered, "Transit plans aren't just about moulding the future, they also have to work for the people and institutions that exist now."

Getting More People on Transit Should be the Key Goal

A 2017 study on the impact of streetcar systems by David King and Lauren Fischer from Columbia University, published in the Journal of Transport Geography, concluded that "new streetcar investments no longer primarily improve transit accessibility. Rather, modern streetcars are part of strategic amenity packages cities use to achieve real estate and economic development goals."

Both planners and supporters of Surrey LRT often point to the ground-level LRT systems in Portland, Seattle, and even Phoenix as successful examples given their perceived transformation impact on urban development, while ignoring the transit-oriented developments emerging around many of the region's SkyTrain stations.

Ridership on Vancouver's SkyTrain system is also far higher than these LRT systems on a ridership per kilometre of track basis:

Vancouver's SkyTrain with three lines totalling 80 kilometres of track and 53 stations has a daily ridership of about 480,000. As mentioned above, its regional population is 2.5 million;

Portland's MAX Light Rail with five lines totalling 97 kilometres of track and 97 stations has a ridership of just 123,000 per day. Its regional population is 2.4 million;

Portland Streetcar with 11.6 kilometres of track in and around the downtown Portland area has a ridership of just 16,000 per day;

Seattle's LINK Light Rail with two lines totalling 35 kilometres of track and 21 stations has a ridership of just 81,000 per day. Its regional population is 3.9 million;

Phoenix's Valley Metro Rail with one line totalling 42 kilometres of track and 35 stations has a ridership of 50,000 per day. Its regional population is 4.7 million.
Over the long-term, the City of Surrey wants to go as far as building 140 kilometres of LRT tracks on its streets.

Surrey LRT proponents have also cited planned and under-construction LRT systems like Calgary' Green Line, Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown Line, and Ottawa's Confederation Line as examples of applications of the technology, but they have elected to not mention a key design difference, these systems are significantly grade separated, and the transit operators in these cities are increasingly acknowledging the need for grade separation.

For instance, more than half of the 19 kilometres long Eglinton Crosstown Line is grade-separated from its tunnelled and elevated tracks, and the 13 kilometres long Confederation Line is 100% grade separated with zero traffic intersections.

To achieve the same grade separation standard under downtown Ottawa, there is a 2.5 kilometres long tunnel running underneath the city centre.

Surrey LRT does not enjoy this major attribute that creates a reliable and fast LRT system.

It is obvious the SNG LRT, which behaves much more like a streetcar, can only achieve the latter objective.

Beyond the short-term, LRT will only handicap Surrey's real growth potential, which is largely driven by those across the region seeking housing affordability and supply.

If Surrey's problem with SkyTrain deals with the slower-than-anticipated growth that has been happening around its SkyTrain stations, compared to the success of Metrotown, Brentwood, New Westminster, Lougheed Town Centre, New Westminster, and Richmond City Centre, that has a lot more to do about Surrey's inability to offer a basic level of services to its residents and businesses.

For instance, over the past decade, little has been done to acknowledge and properly address the municipality's crime and public safety problems.

Those charged with promoting Surrey as a place for investment have also decidedly distanced the municipality from Vancouver, even though the namesake of the region will always be the main attraction.

The greater speed, capacity, reliability, and frequency allowed by a SkyTrain solution has far more potential for getting Surrey residents out of their cars and into transit.

Unlike the Canada Line, this is also the future-proof option of ensuring capacity meets growth, both planned and unplanned.

While the train has likely already left the station for the SNG LRT project, there is still a window of opportunity to ensure the future Fraser Highway rail rapid transit project is built within a regional context, as SkyTrain, not LRT.

The Fraser Highway corridor is far more of a regional corridor than the Newton-Guildford corridor, and SkyTrain was always envisioned for this in successive transit plans until the current Mayors' Council presented theirs.

The tail track of King George Station is even aligned with Fraser Highway for a future extension.

Ultimately, the whole debate on rail rapid transit in the South of Fraser should be about what kind of region we want to be as a whole.

Kenneth Chan.



This whole LRT crap needs to be stopped in its tracks!! The Surrey First Party should rename their party.... "Surrey Last"
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  #5652  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2018, 3:34 AM
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This whole LRT crap needs to be stopped in its tracks!! The Surrey First Party should rename their party.... "Surrey Last"
"Development Surrey Party" would be more appropriate, since this joke of an LRT caters more to developers than to its citizens.
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  #5653  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2018, 6:11 AM
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nah, it should be Surrey Vanity First.
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  #5654  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2018, 8:30 PM
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Janet Brown made a tweet about Bruce Hayne’s stance on LRT. There’s a following tweet.

Quote:
This is why I am telling EVERYONE to VOTE #Surrey FIRST, I use transit and any mayoral candidate against LRT is delusional and out of touch with what is happening. #SurreyBC #Vanpoli #Bcpoli
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  #5655  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2018, 1:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
Janet Brown made a tweet about Bruce Hayne’s stance on LRT. There’s a following tweet.


Thankfully right above it is this tweet:
Quote:
100% agree Vaughn. In order for me to support a project I need to understand total costs, expected benefits to the region, etc. The link SurreyFirst provided is just a glossy overview that a car salesman gives you and then you go the finance dept and get the real sticker shock.
Also
Quote:
Sounds like a good idea. No business case for something with little benefit to our region.
Not everyone has drunk the LRT kool aid
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  #5656  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2018, 4:38 AM
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They're right about one thing though. Hayne doesn't give a rodent's backside about either technology - he merely saw the writing on the wall and wanted out.
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  #5657  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2018, 12:38 PM
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LRT wold likely be fine for the L Line, but the Fraer Higway line needs a higher capacity option "Skytrain" Petr Fastbender who is running for mayor in Langley supports Skytrain out to Lanngley. lsngley should have say in what technology is used to serve their community.
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  #5658  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2018, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
LRT wold likely be fine for the L Line, but the Fraer Higway line needs a higher capacity option "Skytrain" Petr Fastbender who is running for mayor in Langley supports Skytrain out to Lanngley. lsngley should have say in what technology is used to serve their community.
JT PM has said that the money for the LRT is not transferable and both he and Horgan said the LRT Line will be built no matter the outcome of the October civil elections. Talk about ramming something down someone's throat ( not sure if JT is "man" enough for that ). If the new Surrey government says "no LRT" they will ignore them.

No wonder people don't trust politicians....
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  #5659  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2018, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
JT PM has said that the money for the LRT is not transferable and both he and Horgan said the LRT Line will be built no matter the outcome of the October civil elections. Talk about ramming something down someone's throat ( not sure if JT is "man" enough for that ). If the new Surrey government says "no LRT" they will ignore them.

No wonder people don't trust politicians....
If you are referring to the Newton-Guildford LRT, then yes, but if it includes the Fraser Hwy LRT, then

Also, this r/vancouver thread on the Surrey political parties. They all believe that Tom Gill and Surrey First will win singlehandedly, and the status quo will continue (thus, LRT on Fraser Hwy).
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  #5660  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2018, 7:55 PM
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Th L Line is the rapid transit line that is currently funded, is it not.Wuld it not make sense to have th L Line extend to the White- Rock South Surrey area as the original 96 B Lne was supposed to

he Fraser Highway line is the next phase do there may be time to get the proper technology sown Fraser Highway.
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