HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #761  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2019, 10:31 PM
Alex Mackinnon's Avatar
Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
Can I has a tunnel?
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Strathcona
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Better off to calculate kms driven, most EVs are in the 0.16kWh per km for cars, call it 0.2kWh for SUVs and minivans once they are available. Your best guess for anything bigger.
It's higher than that. I maybe get 0.16 kWh/km on a Chevy Volt in the summer without A/C. You're also missing the overhead for the charger, which is about 10%.

In the winter it's more like 0.25 kWh/km.
__________________
"It's ok, I'm an engineer!" -Famous last words
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #762  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2019, 10:38 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East OV!
Posts: 8,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
It's higher than that. I maybe get 0.16 kWh/km on a Chevy Volt in the summer without A/C. You're also missing the overhead for the charger, which is about 10%.

In the winter it's more like 0.25 kWh/km.
0.140 on my Model 3 in the summer.

But yes charging efficiency and winter are different stories. Call it 0.25 overall to be conservative.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #763  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2019, 10:47 PM
logan5's Avatar
logan5 logan5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mt.Pleasant
Posts: 4,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho View Post
That's the numbers as per Davis Swan, per this submission to the BCUC:

https://www.bcuc.com/Documents/wp-co...Submission.pdf



Yeah, where do we need to place the windmills to achieve optimal generating performance? In pristine, untouched ecologically sensitive areas near Haida Gwaii in Northern BC and the northern tip of Vancouver Island, causing significant ecological and habitat destruction:

http://www.windatlas.ca/maps-en.php

Don't forget the need to construct miles of new high voltage transmission lines in said areas as well, to connect your new wind turbines to the rest of the power grid.

Good luck getting that by any of the environmental groups.

Oh, and good luck getting consistent amounts of power on most days... not something one should rely on for a reliable power grid.



So, double the number of EV's planned by 2030 on the road by even the most optimistic numbers. Still need Site C for that power.

And no where near net zero emissions...
What if cars were to charge overnight when there is plenty of extra capacity? How many cars could be charged then.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #764  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 12:05 AM
WestCoastEcho WestCoastEcho is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
It's a number with no context. And that report looks like a 7th grader did it.



Nobody said Site C wasn't required.
Davis Swan is the CEO of a renewable energy startup, and CIO of TRIUMP out at UBC. He also has spent time at the Geological Society of Canada, and with the oil and gas industry as an consultant.

And the context is given in the annotations.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #765  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 12:11 AM
WestCoastEcho WestCoastEcho is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
What if cars were to charge overnight when there is plenty of extra capacity? How many cars could be charged then.
Could cause problems with water levels at the dams, as the dams usually reduce their water usage when power requirements go down at night. Also could cause problems with water management downstream.

Managing water levels both upstream and downstream of a dam isn't easy, and BC Hydro does it's best to make sure all users and needs are met. It could mean that daytime power production is compromised to balance the demands.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #766  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 5:45 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 2,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho View Post
Could cause problems with water levels at the dams, as the dams usually reduce their water usage when power requirements go down at night. Also could cause problems with water management downstream.

Managing water levels both upstream and downstream of a dam isn't easy, and BC Hydro does it's best to make sure all users and needs are met. It could mean that daytime power production is compromised to balance the demands.
Solar could come in handy here. Instead of the power going directly to the grid and probably squandered, it can be used to pump water back upstream into the reservoir for use during the night - or basically any night, since it's not going anywhere.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #767  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 5:51 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 2,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Better off to calculate kms driven, most EVs are in the 0.16kWh per km for cars, call it 0.2kWh for SUVs and minivans once they are available. Your best guess for anything bigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
It's higher than that. I maybe get 0.16 kWh/km on a Chevy Volt in the summer without A/C. You're also missing the overhead for the charger, which is about 10%.

In the winter it's more like 0.25 kWh/km.
Cool. The average BC driver does 13,100 km/yr, so 0.2-0.3 kWh/km means 3275 mW/yr. Multiplied by 3.8M drivers, that's 12 tWh a year.

Either I've missed several decimal places, or we've got plenty of juice as it is.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #768  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 6:16 AM
SpongeG's Avatar
SpongeG SpongeG is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Coquitlam/Rainbow Lake
Posts: 33,485
Most of the gas stations along grandview highway this afternoon were 128.9, the PC at clarke and broadway was 131.9 still. Most of the other stations I saw in Vancouver and Richmond ranged from 131.9 to 134.9.

Got back to Burnaby and the esso on north road is still 149.9
__________________
belowitall
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #769  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 8:51 AM
WestCoastEcho WestCoastEcho is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Solar could come in handy here. Instead of the power going directly to the grid and probably squandered, it can be used to pump water back upstream into the reservoir for use during the night - or basically any night, since it's not going anywhere.
Solar isn't all that efficient in BC; the best locations for solar to would be further south near the US/Canada border, in the region between Castlegar and Cranbrook near the Kootenay Mountain region.

Also, there's issues during the winter months when solar really becomes highly inefficient; with peak demand for power coming around the winter in BC, your capacity factor as demonstrated by the OASIS project out at BCIT goes down seven-fold to 2.8% compared to summer. Mind you, the OASIS project has had ongoing operational issues significantly reducing capacity, but it provides some real world numbers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #770  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 1:32 PM
Alex Mackinnon's Avatar
Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
Can I has a tunnel?
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Strathcona
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Cool. The average BC driver does 13,100 km/yr, so 0.2-0.3 kWh/km means 3275 mW/yr. Multiplied by 3.8M drivers, that's 12 tWh a year.

Either I've missed several decimal places, or we've got plenty of juice as it is.
12 TWh is still more than 2x Site C's output.

That also doesn't properly account for heavy truck traffic, buses, goods transport, trains, planes, etc. It's easiest to just back calculate eletrical requirements based on fossil fuel consumption, as assuming a few efficiency upgrades.

Using that method, I get more like 22 TWh for transport, which is a bit more than 4x Site C's annual output.
__________________
"It's ok, I'm an engineer!" -Famous last words
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #771  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 3:12 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East OV!
Posts: 8,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Cool. The average BC driver does 13,100 km/yr, so 0.2-0.3 kWh/km means 3275 mW/yr. Multiplied by 3.8M drivers, that's 12 tWh a year.

Either I've missed several decimal places, or we've got plenty of juice as it is.
Once you look at your daily usage via BC Hydro, and compare pre and post-EV, you can see that adding a car adds maybe 20% to your usage (and I'm in a condo). It's not this massive energy apocalypse that most people seem to think it is, based on some back of the napkin math.

It's significant, of course, but very manageable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #772  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 8:33 PM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 2,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho View Post
Solar isn't all that efficient in BC; the best locations for solar to would be further south near the US/Canada border, in the region between Castlegar and Cranbrook near the Kootenay Mountain region.

Also, there's issues during the winter months when solar really becomes highly inefficient; with peak demand for power coming around the winter in BC, your capacity factor as demonstrated by the OASIS project out at BCIT goes down seven-fold to 2.8% compared to summer. Mind you, the OASIS project has had ongoing operational issues significantly reducing capacity, but it provides some real world numbers.
True - I'm usually on your side of the argument on renewables. That said, we're just talking about a few hundred MW to boost the dam during the night, so any kind of small-scale power farm should do.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #773  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 8:34 PM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 2,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
12 TWh is still more than 2x Site C's output.

That also doesn't properly account for heavy truck traffic, buses, goods transport, trains, planes, etc. It's easiest to just back calculate eletrical requirements based on fossil fuel consumption, as assuming a few efficiency upgrades.

Using that method, I get more like 22 TWh for transport, which is a bit more than 4x Site C's annual output.
But we're only using a third of our existing maximum capacity right now. Electrifying the transportation sector at least (especially with increasing transit use and other mode shares) seems doable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #774  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 8:54 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East OV!
Posts: 8,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
True - I'm usually on your side of the argument on renewables. That said, we're just talking about a few hundred MW to boost the dam during the night, so any kind of small-scale power farm should do.
We need more interconnects with Alberta too. Their recent power contracts have shown that they have the land and the climate for some very reasonably priced solar power.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #775  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 10:56 PM
Alex Mackinnon's Avatar
Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
Can I has a tunnel?
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Strathcona
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
But we're only using a third of our existing maximum capacity right now. Electrifying the transportation sector at least (especially with increasing transit use and other mode shares) seems doable.
I don't think you get how it peak capacity works here. Hydro can install all the generators it wants to, but it only has enough water to produce a finite amount of power.

If were only using a third of our peak capacity on average, it's because that's all the water there is to turn the turbines.

Site C for instance will output 1,100 MW, but will only output 5,100 GWh a year (on average). It's not because they're just not using the capacity, it's because there's only enough water in the Peace River to make that much power. That means that Site C can run at 1,100 MW a bit over 50% of the time, then it runs out of water. It can throttle up and down to make the best use of that, so long as they keep enough water in the river below.

Most of the other dams in the system have a lower capacity factor; that is to say average/peak output.
__________________
"It's ok, I'm an engineer!" -Famous last words
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #776  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 11:11 PM
WestCoastEcho WestCoastEcho is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
But we're only using a third of our existing maximum capacity right now. Electrifying the transportation sector at least (especially with increasing transit use and other mode shares) seems doable.
No, we are not. We are actually a net importer of electricity on an annual basis per the NEB and Statistics Canada.

And from the last time someone studied total energy use in BC, it was estimated that BC consumed 1,142 Petajoules of energy (electric, natural gas, coal, and oil) in 2000:

Quote:
In 2000, B.C. used some 380 PJ of petroleum products (gasoline ~50%, diesel fuel ~24%, aviation fuels ~20% and heavy oil ~6%), 343 PJ of which were imported. Automobiles and other light vehicles accounted for 45% of all petroleum products used in B.C. Natural gas supplied 300 PJ of B.C.’s energy needs in 2000, waste biomass supplied 225 PJ, and electricity supplied 220 PJ. Coal and coke was used in some industrial operations such as cement plants. The vast majority of B.C.’s coal production was exported.
http://globe.ca/wp-content/uploads/2...ssenreport.pdf

As an FYI, 1,142 petajoules of energy equals to 317 Terawatt hours of energy.

BC Hydro's entire generating capability was 76.4 terawatt hours in 2017. Even just isolating the petroleum products usage means that BC consumed the equivalent of 105 terawatt hours of energy annually.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #777  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 11:29 PM
logan5's Avatar
logan5 logan5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mt.Pleasant
Posts: 4,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho View Post
No, we are not. We are actually a net importer of electricity on an annual basis per the NEB and Statistics Canada.

And from the last time someone studied total energy use in BC, it was estimated that BC consumed 1,142 Petajoules of energy (electric, natural gas, coal, and oil) in 2000:



http://globe.ca/wp-content/uploads/2...ssenreport.pdf

As an FYI, 1,142 petajoules of energy equals to 317 Terawatt hours of energy.

BC Hydro's entire generating capability was 76.4 terawatt hours in 2017. Even just isolating the petroleum products usage means that BC consumed the equivalent of 105 terawatt hours of energy annually.
So how many electric cars can BC Hydro handle?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #778  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2019, 1:54 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 2,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
I don't think you get how it peak capacity works here. Hydro can install all the generators it wants to, but it only has enough water to produce a finite amount of power.

If were only using a third of our peak capacity on average, it's because that's all the water there is to turn the turbines.

Site C for instance will output 1,100 MW, but will only output 5,100 GWh a year (on average). It's not because they're just not using the capacity, it's because there's only enough water in the Peace River to make that much power. That means that Site C can run at 1,100 MW a bit over 50% of the time, then it runs out of water. It can throttle up and down to make the best use of that, so long as they keep enough water in the river below.

Most of the other dams in the system have a lower capacity factor; that is to say average/peak output.
Thanks. Forgot that "generating capacity" means "theoretical."

... I suppose it's time for thorium then?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #779  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2019, 2:50 AM
Alex Mackinnon's Avatar
Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
Can I has a tunnel?
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Strathcona
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Thanks. Forgot that "generating capacity" means "theoretical."

... I suppose it's time for thorium then?
I'm more of the opinion that we need to be building hydro, wind and solar as fast as we can.

Any fission based power is going to be more expensive than the above working together.
__________________
"It's ok, I'm an engineer!" -Famous last words
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #780  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2019, 5:40 AM
scottN scottN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 26
To make our electricity system work BC hydro needs to deliver sufficient power to the right place at the right time. To do this they need:

Capacity
Energy
Storage
Transmission

1 Capacity is the capability to reliably generate power at any given time to meet the demand. Only firm (reliable) capacity counts and since the wind doesn't always blow, wind power contributes 0 capacity. Site C has a capacity of 900MW. Note that we can add more capacity to existing dams by adding more turbines to the dam. Mica and Revelstoke dams were originally built with 4 turbines and are being upgraded with 5th and 6th turbines. Capacity is not "theoretical" BC Hydro will be able to ramp up Mica to run all 6 generators flat out. However there isn't enough water to sustain that rate indefinitely. They need to be able to turn the generators down at other times, such as when wind power is being generated or when importing power from another jurisdiction (hopefully at a low price)

2 Energy is the total amount of power you can generate over time given the constraints of the system (how much water is in the river, how much the wind blows etc). Adding more turbines to an existing dam doesn't add any additional energy. Wind farms and run of river hydro can contribute significantly here. Run of river hydro has the disadvantage that the energy is available at exactly the wrong time of year, when we already have tons of energy and expect to max out our storage capacity by filling up reservoirs.

3 Storage is the ability to store energy until it is needed. Our hydro system has to store energy for 9 months from when the snow melts during the spring freshet until peak loads in February. Adding long term (seasonal) energy storage can be achieved by building new dams, or by building new facilities downstream of existing dams. Site C is huge in this regard since it sits downstream of the Williston Reservoir which is one of the largest in the world. Site C amplifies the energy storage of the Williston Reservoir because the same amount of water released from the reservoir will be able to generate power in 3 generating stations (WAC Bennett, Peace Canyon, Site C) instead of just 2. The amount of energy storage added to the Williston Reservoir by the site C dam far exceeds the energy storage in Site Cs own reservoir.

4. Of course we need to transmit the power from where we generate it (or where we store it) to where we consume it with power lines.

Electric cars can be programmed to charge at night, or whenever other loads are lowest, so they don't need much added capacity or added transmission. What they mainly need is more energy, and more storage if that energy is not produced at the right time.

In addition to electrifying transportation, the clean energy BC plan also calls for electrifying the heating of buildings. And unlike charging electric cars, people won't be willing to heat their home only at off-peak times.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:45 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.