Ontario really has gone down the tubes

[vid]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Before Ford kibboshed the rebates, a brand new Nissan Leaf was about the same price as those dumb SUVs that everyone is buying these days.

AKA, "affordable".

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We should follow the European model. Free, with heavy streaming. No pumping of literally hundreds of thousands of unemployable BAs and BScs per year.

Or we could make community college free for everyone, allowing anybody to gain actually employable skills and creating more bridge programs which let community college grads get degrees in 2-3 years of university.

That's basically what Quebec has done with their CEGEPs (aside from a few hundred dollars administrative fee), and that seems to be working out pretty well for them. I'd rather see that applied universally than free university/college tuition for lower-income students only - though, either one would probably be a moot point with the current government anyway.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by vid

AKA, "affordable".

35k for a sub-compact car is not “affordable” for most people.

[vid]

Originally Posted by acottawa

35k for a sub-compact car is not “affordable” for most people.

Average price of new car rose again last year, but at slower pace. The average transaction price of new vehicle reached $33,464 in Canada in 2017, up 3.2 per cent from $32,430 in the previous year, according to J.D. Power's Power Information Network (PIN) year-end review.Feb 8, 2018

http://canada.autonews.com/article/2...at-slower-pace

Pretty close to average. People in Thunder Bay constantly bitch that they have no money but there are a lot of $60,000+ trucks on the road here, even in my neighbourhood, which as I mentioned before, is one of the poorest in Ontario; the street I live on literally has three drug houses operating on it; there was a fourth but the police raided it and arrested several members of the Crips a couple weeks ago.

Regardless without the government incentive, zero electric cars are within the reach of the average Canadian now, so at least it's fair!

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by acottawa

35k for a sub-compact car is not “affordable” for most people.

The Leaf ended up being in the high $20s with the rebates. After factoring in everything (-rebate, but +HST, +freight, etc.) my brother-in-law paid just under $27k for a brand new 2018 Nissan Leaf in March 2018. That's only a few thousand more expensive than comparably sized ICEs (Corolla, Civic, Mazda3, etc.) and about the same as the SUVs that people buy (which most people do not need--the vast majority of peopel who buy SUVs or crossovers these days would do just fine in a compact, but that's another topic).

In terms of monthly payments, my brother-in-law's 60 month term on his Leaf is $455--when he looked at a Corolla, the payment was around $400 for 60 months. And buying electricity instead of gas for his car saved $60 a month and his insurance went down by $15 a month (electrics have cheaper insurance premiums than ICEs), so owning an electric car was actually $20 a month cheaper for him than a comparable ICE car. And that difference will only get bigger over time when you consider how EVs need much less maintenance.

[CityTech]

That said I do agree that we shouldn't have rebates, although they should have been phased out rather than suddenly eliminated. EVs are getting cheaper to make as production continues to scale up and it's been projected that within the next 5-10 years the purchase price difference between EVs and ICEs will disappear. Rebates are useless if the price difference is about go away on its own.

Instead the government should have done what Quebec and California are doing; mandate a minimum % of EV sales, to get automakers to shift pricing and marketing on their own. Ontario should have implemented the following targets for the following years:
2019: 2% of new sales (we were at roughly 1.5% right before the rebates were eliminated)
2020: 3.5% of new sales
2025: 8% of new sales
2030: 15% of new sales

And accompany this with a phaseout of the rebates between 2019 and 2021 (say down to $9k in 2019, $6k in 2020, and $3k in 2021, and gone in 2022).

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by CityTech

That said I do agree that we shouldn't have rebates, although they should have been phased out rather than suddenly eliminated. EVs are getting cheaper to make as production continues to scale up and it's been projected that within the next 5-10 years the purchase price difference between EVs and ICEs will disappear. Rebates are useless if the price difference is about go away on its own.

Instead the government should have done what Quebec and California are doing; mandate a minimum % of EV sales, to get automakers to shift pricing and marketing on their own. Ontario should have implemented the following targets for the following years:
2019: 2% of new sales (we were at roughly 1.5% right before the rebates were eliminated)
2020: 3.5% of new sales
2025: 8% of new sales
2030: 15% of new sales

And accompany this with a phaseout of the rebates between 2019 and 2021 (say down to $9k in 2019, $6k in 2020, and $3k in 2021, and gone in 2022).

A plan like that is way too complicated for a guy like Doug Ford.

[CityTech]

Interestingly, the abolition of the rebates didn't really stop the massive rise in EV sales. There was a sharp drop in Canadian EV sales from June to July but it started rapidly rising again and now its almost back to what it was during the rebate era:



Which shows that.. Surprise surprise the rebates weren't actually needed.

[Truenorth00]

I have somewhat of an interest in electric vehicles having done a little bit of studying on the topic at grad school.

And I support Elon Musk's point of view. He'd rather have zero tax credits and a gasoline prices that completely captures externalities. Elon Musk thinks gas should $10/g (about $3.48/L at today's exchange rates).

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/338108608430632960

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/338103612943241218

https://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musk-...10-per-gallon/

While not going that far....Regular will be averaging closer to $1.20 next year with the carbon tax. And probably closer to $1.50 by 2025. Couple that trend with the massive load of electric cars coming onstream in 2021-2023, there will be plenty of options for people to switch at reasonable prices.

Lots of mainstream analysts are already talking about a tipping point:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-ev-oil-crisis/

The bigger issue with EVs is that our infrastructure and laws aren't ready for them. We have no ability to force existing condos to adapt. Our utilities have not adapted step down transformers on the streets for them. And while they've mandated the 240V outlet in garages in the building codes, they haven't mandated a decent increase in amperage to really support charging. This is all where government had a role and should have been spending money instead of giving rebates to people.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I have somewhat of an interest in electric vehicles having done a little bit of studying on the topic at grad school.

And I support Elon Musk's point of view. He'd rather have zero tax credits and a gasoline prices that completely captures externalities. Elon Musk thinks gas should $10/g (about $3.48/L at today's exchange rates).

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/338108608430632960

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/338103612943241218

https://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musk-...10-per-gallon/

While not going that far....Regular will be averaging closer to $1.20 next year with the carbon tax. And probably closer to $1.50 by 2025. Couple that trend with the massive load of electric cars coming onstream in 2021-2023, there will be plenty of options for people to switch at reasonable prices.

Lots of mainstream analysts are already talking about a tipping point:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-ev-oil-crisis/

The bigger issue with EVs is that our infrastructure and laws aren't ready for them. We have no ability to force existing condos to adapt. Our utilities have not adapted step down transformers on the streets for them. And while they've mandated the 240V outlet in garages in the building codes, they haven't mandated a decent increase in amperage to really support charging. This is all where government had a role and should have been spending money instead of giving rebates to people.

I’d hedge a bet though that Budget 2019 will include some kind of electric car rebate program heading into an election, especially to kickstart ZEV sales outside of Ontario, Quebec and BC. You’re 100% right though that the infrastructure and mandated building codes need to catch up first. It’s a chicken and egg kind of situation. Isn’t that one of the purposes of a carbon tax? To build the low carbon infrastructure off of the legacy high carbon systems currently in place?

@vid: Good to hear that there are a lot of electrics around Thunder Bay. If you want to see a Tesla, there’s now a bunch around Ottawa and that’s without a Tesla showroom in town yet. If they ever do build one in the NCR, I would not be surprised if it were opened on the Quebec side as even the CAQ (aka Quebec’s version of a Conservative government) has given no indication that they will stop their provincial rebate program.

[MolsonExport]

What proportion of people who drive pickup trucks voted for Doug Ford? 99.99%?

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What proportion of people who drive pickup trucks voted for Doug Ford? 99.99%?

I have a relative (on my wife's side) who sells pick up trucks for a living and he admitted he voted for the Dougster. His reasoning was that finally 'somebody was going to help the middle class'.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What proportion of people who drive pickup trucks voted for Doug Ford? 99.99%?

It seems that way for Southern Ontario. But definitely not true in Northern Ontario!

In fact, my MPP Gilles Bisson, who is NDP, drives a pickup truck. I believe some of the other NDP MPPs in the North do as well.

Vehicles like that aren't associated with conservatism here. But there are very few conservative supporters here to begin with and Timmins is the most left-leaning city in the province.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It seems that way for Southern Ontario. But definitely not true in Northern Ontario!

In fact, my MPP Gilles Bisson, who is NDP, drives a pickup truck. I believe some of the other NDP MPPs in the North do as well.

Vehicles like that aren't associated with conservatism here. But there are very few conservative supporters here to begin with and Timmins is the most left-leaning city in the province.

stereotype (about pickup-truck drivers) refuted

[haljackey]

No Name Beer

I wanted a electric vehicle credit, got buck a beer instead. May as well take advantage lol

http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/sku/110320

[vid]

It's not even a dollar, it's a dollar ten. Probably tastes like shit too.

I drive a pick-up truck (I only ever drove a car when learning how to drive) and I most certainly did not vote for Doug Ford. In face, the election of Doug Ford irritated me so much that I actually left home at 9:15 and drove my pickup truck around while listening to music to mourn the future of our province.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by vid

It's not even a dollar, it's a dollar ten. Probably tastes like shit too.

If you take back the empty it is $1

Agree it probably lacking in the taste department.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

stereotype (about pickup-truck drivers) refuted

Refuted for Northern Ontario lol. I agree agree that it applies to much of Southern Ontario.

Just for the record, I live in Northern Ontario and drive a small car.

Here in Timmins, most people consider me to be more to the right than the average person even though I've mostly voted Liberal and sometimes NDP. When I lived in London, ON, most people there considered me to be quite left-wing.

And I just have to add that I can't stand Doug Ford and the ON PC Party.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by haljackey

No Name Beer

I wanted a electric vehicle credit, got buck a beer instead. May as well take advantage lol

http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/sku/110320

You can thank Premier Simpleton!