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  #201  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 3:28 PM
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So instead of bumbling disagreements, is it possible to say that there are different measures of diversity... some of which would clearly favor the long-standing ethnic mix of NYC and LA, and a few interesting ones that highlight Houston?? Why continue to argue over something where everyone is "right"? It's far more a comparison of apples to pizza than it is apples to apples. Two of Houston's suburbs are actually significantly more diverse than the city itself, so it's very difficult to compare.



Diversity, beyond sheer numbers of people, also has much to do with how those people interact, what role they play in the cultural life of the community and what they're level of mobility is throughout society. I don't wish to compare to NYC or LA, but one of the best things about living in Houston is how diversity is prominent in all areas of culture, government and business leadership.

-University of Houston's President and Chancellor, Dr. Renu Khator is an Indian-American woman... the first in school's history, and the second Indian-American woman to lead a major research institution.

-Obviously Mayor Annise Parker's election was an historic event, but the Houston GLBT Political Caucus is one of the oldest and most successful groups of its kind in the US. It may be one of the oldest groups of it's kind too (don't have time to fact check) founded in 1975. Along with Parker, Houston currently has 1 openly gay city council member and the state's first transgender judge (appointed).

-The city is developing a prominent position as a haven for women business leaders. This article has a little bit of spin, but the revenue increase is still quite impressive...
http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/m...men-owned.html

Those are just a few more points for consideration. Before we bury ourselves in census numbers, can we take a second to also think about diversity in a more... diverse measure (ironic, isn't it)?
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  #202  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JoninATX View Post
Houston has a good amount of diversity but I would not go as far as saying it has more than NYC or LA. Now I can see Houston diversity passing up Chicago, Philadelphia, or Washington D.C.
Houston may not have the largest amount of diversity by some counts, but the quality of Houston's diversity is the best!
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  #203  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 6:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanactivist View Post
So instead of bumbling disagreements, is it possible to say that there are different measures of diversity... some of which would clearly favor the long-standing ethnic mix of NYC and LA, and a few interesting ones that highlight Houston?? Why continue to argue over something where everyone is "right"? It's far more a comparison of apples to pizza than it is apples to apples. Two of Houston's suburbs are actually significantly more diverse than the city itself, so it's very difficult to compare.
I get what you're saying, but I think that's a different issue. This brouhaha is in large part response to a very specific claim citing 2010 Census numbers that Houston is the most diverse city in the US. Some people like Private Dick have raised valid questions about this claim (e.g., How is diversity being defined? How is diversity being measured?), but I haven't seen much of a response to those questions from the people who keep promulgating it.
     
     
  #204  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 8:39 PM
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Sweet Jesus. Never in my life would I have thought the term "Diverse" would be a debate. The way our country has always recorded "diversity" (yes it's in quotes now for it seems it's more like an UrbanDictionary term now rather than a legitimate term) has been based on race, which is a social construct. It used to be just White and Black with complete disregard to any other minority. Now, it's based on ethnicity which, in most cases, means Nationality. Houston may not be the destination of choice for most in this country, but it definitely is among immigrants. Hispanic is not just Mexican obviously, but Salvadorian, Honduran, etc. The Asian population is booming especially in the Inner Loop and Western suburbs (Katy, Cypress, Cinco Ranch). No, numerically Houston may not have the biggest amount, but when it comes down to percentages, yes, Houston is extremely diverse. I feel the use of "Diversity" in this study is essentially the decline of the historically majority Anglo with a rise in overall Minorities; demonstrating a closing gap between majority and minority making the city the "Most Diverse in the Country" given that it is happening at a rapid pace. Even though Harris County has been a Minority-Majority county for quite some time now the city has not. I'll throw this in just to piss people off too: Houston also has the most foreign Consulates after NYC. There.
Here's an example: I currently live in neighborhood in the East Side of Cleveland that is easily 80% black, 18% white, and maybe 2% other. Is this neighborhood more diverse than one that is 20% black, 20% Hispanic, 20% Asian, 20% Jewish, and 20% Polish/Italian? In the latter, the white population represents 40% of the total, whereas in the former, it's only 18% -- which is more diverse?

For me, at least, diversity does NOT have nearly as much to do with skin color as it does culture and/or socio-economic standing. Where I live now, it seems like everyone is almost entirely the same (not a bad thing, but not "diverse" when I think of how that word is traditionally used -- meaning different peoples).
     
     
  #205  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G View Post
I get what you're saying, but I think that's a different issue. This brouhaha is in large part response to a very specific claim citing 2010 Census numbers that Houston is the most diverse city in the US. Some people like Private Dick have raised valid questions about this claim (e.g., How is diversity being defined? How is diversity being measured?), but I haven't seen much of a response to those questions from the people who keep promulgating it.
Well that's not the fault of any particular forumer unless they work for the Federal Govt or Rice's Kinder Institute and helped to compile the data. If forumers have an issue with that, they should probably write to the government and question their methodology.

I don't mean to always defend Houston either... there's plenty of things I dislike about the city. But it's equally unfair for people to shoot down the tremendous strides of diversity, equality and cultural enrichment that are occurring in Houston as insignificant. The fact that Anglos no longer hold the predominant group in a major US metro (and in Texas) is a big deal. The fact that Houston's Asian population Doubled in 10 years is a big deal. And the fact that by next census, Houston will be majority Hispanic is another one. But for 2010, we have to take the numbers as they stand. The city grew a hell of a lot, and the growth was predominantly Hispanic with some significant accompanying growth in the Asian community. If having a "majority clump" of citizenry is your standard, then Houston doesn't have one. Sounds pretty diverse to me. And that's the basis of the findings. As diverse as NYC, Chicago, and LA may be, they have one race that still maintains a majority, or has a higher percentage in their largest group. That's the study and there's nothing more to read into it.
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  #206  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 8:54 PM
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never understood the hoopla over diversity as if it is a gauge to rank a certain city's worthiness. all these people touting how diverse their cities are probably rarely ever expose themselves to those other communities and no, eating curry at an indian restaurant or ordering a burrito from a taco trunk does not count.
     
     
  #207  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 8:57 PM
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I would also like to say that I don't want to come off as a guy who is a Houston backer no matter what. I've been in cities I don't like living in. I like living in Houston, it earned that respect from me but it's not my favorite city in the world either.

I just want the statistics to be respected. I think the valid reason Houston is so ethnically diverse is because there are so many ethnicites within the "hispanic" group. Combine with Houstons popular immigration from Asia and the statistics are in Houstons favor. If you want to translate those numbers in a different way, fine, but respect the raw statistics.
     
     
  #208  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanactivist View Post
Well that's not the fault of any particular forumer unless they work for the Federal Govt or Rice's Kinder Institute and helped to compile the data. If forumers have an issue with that, they should probably write to the government and question their methodology.
That's perfectly fine. But I'd like to believe the forum is intelligent enough to recognize the deficiency in the study and discuss it with the same said intelligence. Instead, what we got upon questioning the methodology (not questioning Houston, mind you, but the study itself) was "Look at it from whatever perspective you want. Houston is the most ethnically diverse large city in America." and "It is the facts.". That is just laziness and comes across as blind boosterism. I understand that Houston gets a lot of undeserved crap on the forum, but come on.

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Originally Posted by urbanactivist View Post
The fact that Anglos no longer hold the predominant group in a major US metro (and in Texas) is a big deal.... And the fact that by next census, Houston will be majority Hispanic is another one. But for 2010, we have to take the numbers as they stand. The city grew a hell of a lot, and the growth was predominantly Hispanic with some significant accompanying growth in the Asian community. If having a "majority clump" of citizenry is your standard, then Houston doesn't have one. Sounds pretty diverse to me. And that's the basis of the findings. As diverse as NYC, Chicago, and LA may be, they have one race that still maintains a majority, or has a higher percentage in their largest group. That's the study and there's nothing more to read into it.
Response to bold points:

Not really. 22 of the nation's largest metros are now "majority-minority". Including places like NYC, LA, SF, Miami, San Diego, and DC... not to mention Texas' own San Antonio and El Paso.

Neither do a number of other major cities.

While that may or may not be accurate, it becomes a very tenuous argument to basically break it down into saying, Houston is the most diverse right now because it has equal percentages -- 40% Hispanic, 40% White -- in its largest groups. That simply does not equate to a most diverse claim, and it doesn't take any "reading into it" to understand that.

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Originally Posted by Double L View Post
I just want the statistics to be respected. I think the valid reason Houston is so ethnically diverse is because there are so many ethnicites within the "hispanic" group. Combine with Houstons popular immigration from Asia and the statistics are in Houstons favor. If you want to translate those numbers in a different way, fine, but respect the raw statistics.
There's a big problem with you reasoning though... no one is translating the numbers. The "raw statistics" that we're given from the study do not break down the Hispanic group into different ethnicities. Just as they do not for Anglos. If they did, they would find that Houston is a third Mexican/Central American... and then their diversity claims begin to lose some merit. Instead, we are just given 40% Hispanic, 40% White, 17% Black, 6% Asian.

There's no doubt that Houston is a diverse city. There is just a problem with how this study is measuring it and reporting it. Just because a city/metro is becoming "less White" does not necessarily mean it is becoming "more diverse", especially if you are basically just replacing one broadly-defined ethnic group (Anglo Whites) with another broadly-defined ethnic group (Hispanics/Latinos) on a 1:1 basis, as in the case of Houston over the past 20 years. Get it?
     
     
  #209  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 11:07 PM
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Anyway...

The actual Kinder report and Brookings census report show that Houston's Hispanic population is at 35%, not 40%. So, Anglos still constitute the largest individual group in Houston, refuting that above claim that Houston does not have a higher percentage in its largest group.
     
     
  #210  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
That's perfectly fine. But I'd like to believe the forum is intelligent enough to recognize the deficiency in the ... as in the case of Houston over the past 20 years. Get it?

I like this argument a lot.

More to the point, I honestly don't understand this obsession with population and diversity. Since when are these things a measure of a city's worth? That is, this gets at a bigger point. What quantifies a city's worth? It seems intangible to the point that this whole debate, or whatever this is, is completely worthless and trite.

Portland, OR has a very small population. It isn't particularly diverse. And it isn't a major world city. Nonetheless, it is, in my opinion, one the nicest and coolest places in the US, full of awesome restaurants, an abundance of activities, full of energy, and so on... whatever.

What am I saying? This whole desperate attempt to convey Houston's world class status on an internet forum is silly and sad. It isn't a world class city. Who fucking cares how many people live there? It's an interesting South Texas city with really good Mexican food, a bizarre (this is a desirable adjective) art scene, has a really strong economy, and home to some really eclectic and interesting small businesses; but it's also absurdly hot, completely suburban and sprawled out disgustingly far, and has shit for entertainment, nightlife or otherwise. Nothing more and nothing less. But again, this is just how I feel about the city. And who on this forum really cares about that?

This country has 3 major world cities: NYC, LA, and Chicago... and then there's DC and San Fran... everything else is just that... everything else. Jesus, this has been going on for YEARS.

Silly quibble: Houston isn't a particularly young city. 1837, same as Chicago, 13 years before LA.
     
     
  #211  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 11:23 PM
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I happen to think that having two dominant ethnic groups which comprise around 80% of a metro's total population does not translate to highly diverse when looking at it from a VERY broad view (as this Rice Kinder study does).

Houston exhibits this, and so do NYC and LA to a somewhat lesser extent.

However, looking at San Francisco metro or San Francisco-San Jose metro, we see that that region has a more equally-distributed ethnic makeup of the 4 largest ethnic groups:

It's roughly 40% White, 20% Asian, 20% Hispanic, and 10% Black
     
     
  #212  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanactivist View Post
Well that's not the fault of any particular forumer unless they work for the Federal Govt or Rice's Kinder Institute and helped to compile the data. If forumers have an issue with that, they should probably write to the government and question their methodology.
No one is questioning the Census methodology.

They're questioning the inferences you're taking from the Census, i.e., if more Mexicans move into an area, the area becomes more diverse.

I think most people would disagree with the implication that diversity is defined as "% nonwhite". If that's the case, then the Mexican Border, Detroit, and Indian reservations are the most diverse parts of the U.S.

I also think most would disagree with diversity as "roughly even distribution of Census-derived racial categories". If that's the case, then suburban sprawltopias are probably the most diverse neigborhoods in the U.S.
     
     
  #213  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 11:28 PM
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I think the valid reason Houston is so ethnically diverse is because there are so many ethnicites within the "hispanic" group.
Hispanic Houstonians are overwhelmingly Mexican. The relatively few that aren't Mexican are from a Central American background, which, historically, is about the same thing as Mexican (Mayan blooded Amerindian mix).

There aren't significant numbers of Hispanic Houstons from places like South America or the Carribean, while other cities happen to have signficant numbers of Hispanics from all these places. That's why there's disagreement re. the relative diversity.
     
     
  #214  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2012, 11:31 PM
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mexicans, whites and blacks do not equal diversity.
     
     
  #215  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2012, 12:08 AM
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There are some shitty arguments against Houston on here, but a lot of white noise type blabber, too.
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  #216  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2012, 3:33 PM
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What is it about that word "diversity" that makes everybody around here mess their pants in excitement ?
Seriously , who cares ? Live in a really diverse city ? (whatever that's supposed to mean anyway) .... good for you . You get a cookie . Live in a place that's %98 whatever ethnic group you care to name ... good for you again .
I'm a foreigner living in China . Frankly , I like being part of a tiny minority in this rather homogenous country . If I want to experience the world , I can always go to some other part of it . "Diversity" just makes everywhere the same .
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  #217  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
What is it about that word "diversity" that makes everybody around here mess their pants in excitement ?
Seriously , who cares ? Live in a really diverse city ? (whatever that's supposed to mean anyway) .... good for you . You get a cookie . Live in a place that's %98 whatever ethnic group you care to name ... good for you again .
I'm a foreigner living in China . Frankly , I like being part of a tiny minority in this rather homogenous country . If I want to experience the world , I can always go to some other part of it . "Diversity" just makes everywhere the same .
If you're a minority living in a homogeneous country and nobody fucks with you and there are laws/protection against discrimination, than it's fine. But often, that's not the case.

And, some of us love a lot of different cultures and it's good to be able to experience them in some way, like food or music, without having to go that far.
     
     
  #218  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2012, 7:28 PM
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While Houston may technically be more diverse than New York, it doesn't feel as diverse, and here's why.

Most cities have concentrated urban areas of different ethnic groups. For example, Boston's "North End" is a highly concentrated area of Italians. Since it is so built up, concentrated, and urban, it just feels more authentic. Same with other cities, they haver Chinatowns and such.

Houston has a Chinatown, but it's so suburban and spread out that it doesn't have the same feel. It's hard to feel like youre truly in Chinatown or in any other section in Houston since everything is so spread out. That's why other cities feel like they are more diverse.
     
     
  #219  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2012, 8:55 PM
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houston's claim on "diversity" rests on the census' (lack of) resolution of ethnity/race into basically four groups: hispanic, white, black and asian. any half-intelligent person could easily see how this claim could be called into question.

any attempt to call this a final or "alternative yet equally legitimate" measure of diversity is clearly self-delusional boosterism, or a simple lack of intelligence, and deserves no merit. even the toronto boosters (who have a far more legitimate claim than houston vs ny/la/dc/sf, etc) were able to understand this.
     
     
  #220  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2012, 9:22 PM
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^ It's not "technically" more diverse. Houston is only the "most diverse" metro based on this singular study that utilizes very broad assumptions about what defines diversity in a place.

I think we've established that and beaten the topic to death.
     
     
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