Should Canada Be Preparing for a Destabilized USA?

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Good to know you'll be supporting the diverse democracy that is cuba and not that dictator trump.

Seriously this is the absurdity of you people;.

Stop that, you WHITE MALE.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Am I the only one who'll happily continue to visit places like the US and Cuba?

[Stryker]

Republicans at the oscars.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

Am I the only one who'll happily continue to visit places like the US and Cuba?

That wasn't my point. Political outrage at one countries politics and then ignoring virtually every other in sight is in sane.

[1overcosc]

I'm not generally a fan of avoiding travel to a country over its political leadership unless it's something very serious (like Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa, for example), but I can understand the logic of holding a place like the USA to a higher standard than, say, Cuba. The USA is a developed country with an established history of democracy that is logically expected to continue.. Cuba has yet to get there in the first place and cutting them off from the world isn't the way to get them to do that. In fact, the evidence we have of the experiences of Communist states is that engagement with the rest of the world is the best way to turn them into functioning democracies.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Cuba has yet to get there in the first place and cutting them off from the world isn't the way to get them to do that. In fact, the evidence we have of the experiences of Communist states is that engagement with the rest of the world is the best way to turn them into functioning democracies.

So what about all the other south american countries that democratically embrace crackpot socialism/fascism?

If your poor and uneducated in latin american, it's a shame.

If your poor and uneducated in America "FUck Em all to death?"

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Stryker

So what about all the other south american countries that democratically embrace crackpot socialism/fascism?

A country with a developed economy rarely embraces that kind of stuff. Economic advancement is necessary to protect democratic advancement. International co-operation is key to both.

Exhibit A: Czech Republic. Immediately after communist regime overthrown, begins engaging with the rest of the world, integrating itself with the EU and NATO as soon as possible, uses the help of the international community to develop the trappings of a democracy (independent judiciary, free press, etc.) and an advanced economy. In the year 2017, is now a healthy democracy with a developed economy, just like us.
Exhibit B: Russia. Overthrows communist regime, fails to develop proper democratic institutions, economic reforms backfire, quick return to authoritarian rule and the economy flounders. Back to Square One, under a different ideology.
Exhibit C: China. Develops its economy rather well, minimal commitments to democratic advancement that ultimately amount to nothing.

The Czech Republic (along with Poland, Lithuania, etc.) relied heavily on ties to the world community to get on the right track. If the world hadn't been there to pull them up, who knows what would have happened.

So, really, Cuba is going to need world engagement if wants to become a Czech Republic. Cutting them off the world will put them down another path.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

A country with a developed economy rarely embraces that kind of stuff. Economic advancement is necessary to protect democratic advancement.

Exhibit A: Czech Republic.
Exhibit B: Russia.
Exhibit C: China.

Not sure I get your meaning.

Trump isn't any approaching what you see in developing countries in terms of extremes.

I thought your point was not supporting a direction change.

Your making it sound as if not only do you have a higher standard for rich countries you have virtually none for poor countries.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Compare and contrast how each country handled the transition away from communist economics.

I have no idea what you mean by this;.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Not sure I get your meaning.

Trump isn't any approaching what you see in developing countries in terms of extremes.

I thought your point was not supporting a direction change.

Your making it sound as if not only do you have a higher standard for rich countries you have virtually none for poor countries.


I have no idea what you mean by this;.

Edited my post to clarify.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

A country with a developed economy rarely embraces that kind of stuff. Economic advancement is necessary to protect democratic advancement.

Exhibit A: Czech Republic. Immediately after communist regime overthrown, begins engaging with the rest of the world, integrating itself with the EU and NATO as soon as possible, uses the help of the international community to develop the trappings of a democracy (independent judiciary, free press, etc.) and an advanced economy. In the year 2017, is now a healthy democracy with a developed economy, just like us.
Exhibit B: Russia. Overthrows communist regime, fails to develop proper democratic institutions, economic reforms backfire, quick return to authoritarian rule and the economy flounders. Back to Square One, under a different ideology.

I think that's an oversimplification of the last 30 years of history.

EDIT: Obviously its condensed for conversational purposes but even within conversation I think there is a lot more going on.

[casper]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I'm not generally a fan of avoiding travel to a country over its political leadership unless it's something very serious (like Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa, for example), but I can understand the logic of holding a place like the USA to a higher standard than, say, Cuba. The USA is a developed country with an established history of democracy that is logically expected to continue.. Cuba has yet to get there in the first place and cutting them off from the world isn't the way to get them to do that. In fact, the evidence we have of the experiences of Communist states is that engagement with the rest of the world is the best way to turn them into functioning democracies.

Lets be pragmatic....

Cuba has a repressive government by Canadian standards for freedom, property rights and democracy. That said, as a tourist you are generally well treated and are unlikely as a tourist to be poorly treated because of your skin colour, religion and ethnic background.

The US has values closer to Canada, or at least it use to. However it now has a government in place that is going after a religion that is not mainstream in the US, and it is ethnically profiling at the point of entry and with law enforcement in general. As a tourist I could see how if your ethnic background or religion or place of birth is in one of these profiles you may very well feel safer in Cuba.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by casper

Lets be pragmatic....

Cuba has a repressive government by Canadian standards for freedom, property rights and democracy. That said, as a tourist you are generally well treated and are unlikely as a tourist to be poorly treated because of your skin colour, religion and ethnic background.

So your establishing an argument purely out of self interest?

Originally Posted by casper

The US has values closer to Canada, or at least it use to. However it now has a government in place that is going after a religion that is not mainstream in the US, and it is ethnically profiling at the point of entry and with law enforcement in general. As a tourist I could see how if your ethnic background or religion or place of birth is in one of these profiles you may very well feel safer in Cuba.

Do you honestly believe that cuba is that safe?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Good to know you'll be supporting the diverse democracy that is cuba and not that dictator trump.

Seriously this is the absurdity of you people;.

Of "you people" ??? Who am I being grouped into by you??

Well I can tell you that by staying at a resort in Cuba that I am helping to create better paying jobs there. I may not be fond of Cuba's government but at least the president and government don't make hateful remarks about people from certain countries and what they believe in. The country is heading in the right direction albeit very very slowly.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by casper

Lets be pragmatic....

Cuba has a repressive government by Canadian standards for freedom, property rights and democracy. That said, as a tourist you are generally well treated and are unlikely as a tourist to be poorly treated because of your skin colour, religion and ethnic background.

The US has values closer to Canada, or at least it use to. However it now has a government in place that is going after a religion that is not mainstream in the US, and it is ethnically profiling at the point of entry and with law enforcement in general. As a tourist I could see how if your ethnic background or religion or place of birth is in one of these profiles you may very well feel safer in Cuba.

BINGO!! I agree that visitors are treated well and equally no matter where they come from. I've met Muslim tourists in Cuba who love it there even though you see pork everywhere lol.

I do believe that Cuba will change in the near future with a new president in 2018. There will likely be quite a few economic reforms and more foreign investment allowed. Maybe something like what China has done? I have no idea how the Trump administration and U.S. congress will see Cuba. If there's the potential for investment opportunities, it will be hard for the U.S. to have an embargo while at the same time be doing lots of business with China. I could see more Canadian companies investing either way.

Cuba COULD be THE place to invest as it has a healthy and well educated population. I feel that isolating the country only made the current regime gain more power.

[1overcosc]

China's not a good model to follow. Sure, they brought life to their economy but it remains as harshly authoritarian and repressive as ever.

Czechia, Poland, Hungary, etc. are a much better model, but their success rested heavily on international engagement. That can't happen for Cuba unless the Americans drop their boycott.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

A country with a developed economy rarely embraces that kind of stuff. Economic advancement is necessary to protect democratic advancement. International co-operation is key to both.

Exhibit A: Czech Republic. Immediately after communist regime overthrown, begins engaging with the rest of the world, integrating itself with the EU and NATO as soon as possible, uses the help of the international community to develop the trappings of a democracy (independent judiciary, free press, etc.) and an advanced economy. In the year 2017, is now a healthy democracy with a developed economy, just like us.
Exhibit B: Russia. Overthrows communist regime, fails to develop proper democratic institutions, economic reforms backfire, quick return to authoritarian rule and the economy flounders. Back to Square One, under a different ideology.
Exhibit C: China. Develops its economy rather well, minimal commitments to democratic advancement that ultimately amount to nothing.

The Czech Republic (along with Poland, Lithuania, etc.) relied heavily on ties to the world community to get on the right track. If the world hadn't been there to pull them up, who knows what would have happened.

So, really, Cuba is going to need world engagement if wants to become a Czech Republic. Cutting them off the world will put them down another path.

Not sure how much you know about Czechia but here I go. It was not off track per say. And there never was a change in leadership, all that happened in 1989 was that the leadership basically changed the color of their coats and instead of aligning to a eastern parasitic power, the y aligned to a western (more prosperous) parasitic power. After all the USSR was a poor country, it always was incredibly poor, with large swaths of undeveloped, under-educated, un-industrialized parts of their country. It did a great job after losing over 20 million people in 1945, and it improved the lives of hundreds of millions, but it also did so by sucking the eastern block countries, and specifically Czechoslovakia dry. Aligning westward by default has been more profitably for Czechia no doubt, its only logical.

Former communist party members to this day are the main politicians in the country and continue to run it. Half the politicians today are former communist party members, or operatives. Hell, even the unreformed communist party is to this day the official opposition party and regularly gets around 15% of the popular vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...ia_and_Moravia. You see what happened in Czechoslovakia in 1989 was that the leadership behind closed doors decided to dissolve government and privatize everything, and as a result they got rich over night. Was it a good thing or a bad thing? It was neither. Why is Czechia well off today? Because it was always well off, even during communism, and before communism. Unlike Russia, or even Poland, or Hungary, or Romania, it was a much more industrialized since the turn of the 20th century. It simply had more to work with, that is the difference today. After-all Czechia, and specifically Bohemia was the industrial heart of the Austrio Hungarian empire, it was also why Hitler took it as the first country, because of its industrial base. "In 1938, Czechoslovakia held 10th place in the world for industrial production." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...Czechoslovakia /rant

my point is people often don't understand the history of Czechia /Czehoslovkia.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

China's not a good model to follow. Sure, they brought life to their economy but it remains as harshly authoritarian and repressive as ever.

Czechia, Poland, Hungary, etc. are a much better model, but their success rested heavily on international engagement. That can't happen for Cuba unless the Americans drop their boycott.

I mentioned China because there are a lot of people and companies that have become very wealthy. There are urban centres that are very modern and advanced. You don't see that in Havana or anywhere in Cuba.

I agree that the European countries that you mentioned are much better places today.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Of "you people" ??? Who am I being grouped into by you??

Well I can tell you that by staying at a resort in Cuba that I am helping to create better paying jobs there. I may not be fond of Cuba's government but at least the president and government don't make hateful remarks about people from certain countries and what they believe in. The country is heading in the right direction albeit very very slowly.

Hateful remarks versus no freedom good to see you know where to draw the line.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Stryker

So your establishing an argument purely out of self interest?


Do you honestly believe that cuba is that safe?

I am not trying to defend the Government of Cuba. I am making an argument as to why some may chose to travel to Cuba instead of the US and find it a safer option.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Not sure how much you know about Czechia but here I go. It was not off track per say. And there never was a change in leadership, all that happened in 1989 was that the leadership basically changed the color of their coats and instead of aligning to a eastern parasitic power, the y aligned to a western (more prosperous) parasitic power. After all the USSR was a poor country, it always was incredibly poor, with large swaths of undeveloped, under-educated, un-industrialized parts of their country. It did a great job after losing over 20 million people in 1945, and it improved the lives of hundreds of millions, but it also did so by sucking the eastern block countries, and specifically Czechoslovakia dry. Aligning westward by default has been more profitably for Czechia no doubt, its only logical.

Former communist party members to this day are the main politicians in the country and continue to run it. Half the politicians today are former communist party members, or operatives. Hell, even the unreformed communist party is to this day the official opposition party and regularly gets around 15% of the popular vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...ia_and_Moravia. You see what happened in Czechoslovakia in 1989 was that the leadership behind closed doors decided to dissolve government and privatize everything, and as a result they got rich over night. Was it a good thing or a bad thing? It was neither. Why is Czechia well off today? Because it was always well off, even during communism, and before communism. Unlike Russia, or even Poland, or Hungary, or Romania, it was a much more industrialized since the turn of the 20th century. It simply had more to work with, that is the difference today. After-all Czechia, and specifically Bohemia was the industrial heart of the Austrio Hungarian empire, it was also why Hitler took it as the first country, because of its industrial base. "In 1938, Czechoslovakia held 10th place in the world for industrial production." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...Czechoslovakia /rant

my point is people often don't understand the history of Czechia /Czehoslovkia.

Well obviously as a Czech-Canadian you'd understand more than me. I'm aware of the conspiracy theories involving the Velvet Revolution (Cibulka's musings on the topic are certainly intruging) but it just seems too.. perfect.