Should there be a High Speed Rail link from Calgary to Edmonton?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It isn't like government is going to make this decision, the cheapest set that performs to standards will likely be used. There won't be any reason or ability to move the train sets off of the HSR tracks anyways unless JetTrain is used (the dash 8 acela type)

If this is ever built I hope (and expect) it is a Government run project. AFAIK, all EU HSR networks were public projects, I'm not too sure about other countries but I'd like to know the history of privately constructed high speed rail lines.

99% of rail vehicles built will be to standard gauge and most high speed vehicles will belong to one of a few sets of standards (EU, Japanese etc) so it will be simplest to buy something similar to those standards. Building to standard gauge is really the only option even though as you say it will probably be a captive line at first, as it will allow flexibility in the future.

While considerations are different in Alberta, Transrapid's maglev was thoroughly rejected in favour of conventional rail for the UK's network and I would expect the same result here upon further/any scrutiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

If someone thinks they can make money with that kind of capital cost, be my guest. But really, I don't think it is very credible.

On paper I think the Transrapid system is a good fit, but apparently it was the Maglev 2000 people that made the presentation. I know even less about the Maglev 2000 technology. It claims to be the latest and greatest but it’s also the least developed. I don’t believe they even have a test facility built yet. The Transrapid technology looks very tempting, but there are also some significant questions around it. The first might be why hasn’t anyone other than China bought it? And why did China abandon its plans to expand it? There are reasons that seem to make sense, but I’d want to look deeper as well. Transrapid seems to be best for areas where you could run it at high speed for long stretches, and where there isn’t already a HSR network to integrate with. But there have been proposals in Australia where these conditions exist, and Transrapid doesn’t seem to be winning out there, and this one from Canary Islands adds another twist. It seems that the German government thinks that the companies that own the technology have lost interest in it.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-758348.html

If it performs the way they say it will I think it would be a very good fit for a Calgary to Edmonton line, and Toronto to Montreal, and if we could find a way to make it a bit cheaper a Calgary to Vancouver line would be transformative for that area as well. But there are still some big questions about it that I’d want to do a lot of research on if I was at the decision making level on this project.

[milomilo]

High-speed rail between Calgary, Edmonton not feasible, finds committee

There you have it. The report is exactly as expected.

I would like to see some form of heavy passenger rail service in the shorter term, but getting decent ridership will be a struggle.

[MalcolmTucker]

Land Assembly Ho! Time to commission a corridor study and freeze it.

[rapid_business]

Indeed!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

High-speed rail between Calgary, Edmonton not feasible, finds committee

There you have it. The report is exactly as expected.

I would like to see some form of heavy passenger rail service in the shorter term, but getting decent ridership will be a struggle.

There is a rail line going between the 2 cities. Why not run a regular passenger train from Calgary to Edmonton?

[ue]

Regular passenger rail service with the potential to upgrade down the line to HSR is what we should be looking at now between Edmonton and Calgary. It's quite pathetic that zero rail service exists between the two cities.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is a rail line going between the 2 cities. Why not run a regular passenger train from Calgary to Edmonton?

Alberta has the massive disadvantage of not having developed during the railway era, so passenger networks never reached critical mass when they didn't have competition from the car.

Simply putting passenger trains on the freight tracks would provide atrocious service and no one would use it. It's hard to think of a viable way to build passenger rail without building an entire high speed line.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ue

Regular passenger rail service with the potential to upgrade down the line to HSR is what we should be looking at now between Edmonton and Calgary. It's quite pathetic that zero rail service exists between the two cities.

It would cost a boat load to provide similar service to the red arrow. Because of the high capital cost, with lower desirability, it actually makes more sense to spend more on high speed, as you can recover a higher amount of the cost. The province did a study in the early 1980s to set the course, and decided to wait until full high speed was viable instead of upgrading one of the day liner services operating at that time.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is a rail line going between the 2 cities. Why not run a regular passenger train from Calgary to Edmonton?

Do you guys have any concept of just how many contortions the CPR and VIA went through over thirty years trying to make the Dayliner work?

[Airboy]

The cities were much smaller, the economy was much different back then.

[MalcolmTucker]

The issue with passenger rail travel between Calgary and Edmonton is the existing tracks, and the amount of freight that runs on them. There isn't a cheaper solution than entry level high speed rail (at least 200 kph).

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Land Assembly Ho! Time to commission a corridor study and freeze it.

There are some glaring problems with that report, but the conclusion is the right one at least. Now they just have to make sure they assemble the land in a way that will accommodate a very fast train. The fastest current technology is the Transrapid with an operating speed of 500 km/h, and the curves on this track should be able to handle at least that as an operating speed, and probably a bit more to allow for future technology.

[RHINO]

Please excuse me for not reading the recent run down, but this was something that was talked about while I was living in Edmonton in 2002-2003 ( roughly ) .

Yes, this is something that Edmonton, Calgary & Red deer would HUGELY benefit from.
Massively but getting anyone who has the ability to make this happen, likely wont do it. Its more likely that High speed rail between Hope B.C. & Abbotsford gets built first.

[Allan83]

A new and comprehensive report out of Sweden is very positive about the Transrapid system for Sweden. It suggests that recent advances will make both the construction and operation of the system less expensive, and give it a smoother ride too. Lots of other interesting and new to me details as well. The translation is not very good, however.

“Cost of Building Maglev Could Become as Cheap as High-Speed Rail

PARIS, July 30, 2014 (Nouvelle Solidarité) -- A report published earlier this year by three Swedish railway engineers (Svederberg, Brunius, and Thorén) titled "Study into Magnet-Trains 2014" argues that the scientific and technological progress accomplished over the last decades, allows the construction of maglev mass transportation at a substantially lower cost than before... [http://www.ft.dk/samling/20131/almde...88/1341701.pdf]

The Swedish report demonstrates that today, the construction cost of a maglev track can be reduced by four or five times, bringing costs per km in the range of those of, let's say, an "ordinary" French TGV...”
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...52530486670751

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by RHINO

Please excuse me for not reading the recent run down, but this was something that was talked about while I was living in Edmonton in 2002-2003 ( roughly ) .

Yes, this is something that Edmonton, Calgary & Red deer would HUGELY benefit from.
Massively but getting anyone who has the ability to make this happen, likely wont do it. Its more likely that High speed rail between Hope B.C. & Abbotsford gets built first.

They will benefit, but likely nowhere near as much as if the money was allocated to the cities' LRTs, and probably not enough to justify the cost. The report by the Province's committee agrees with that and we won't be building HSR for a long time.

The case would probably be a lot different if we had an existing passenger rail network. But we don't.

[MalcolmTucker]

HSR can make its capital cost back, which LRTs as part of systems that rely on bus feeders cannot. But when you need to make a choice for not seeing money for 30 years, vs never again, LRT does make more sense, time value of money, and net present value and all that.

I say, why not do both?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

HSR can make its capital cost back

What makes you say that? Not disagreeing - just interested.

Committee recommendations

1. The Government of Alberta should not invest in a high-speed rail transit system in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor at this time because the population of the corridor is not sufficient to support the profitable operation of such a system.

2. The Government of Alberta should include in its long-term transportation infrastructure strategic plan the expansion of light-rail transit and the development of regional transportation systems.

3. As part of the long-term transportation infrastructure strategic plan, the Government of Alberta should identify a greenfield transportation/utility corridor between Calgary and Edmonton to assist in future transportation infrastructure planning with capacity for a potential high-speed rail transit system.

4. The Government of Alberta should begin the process of acquiring land for a transportation/utility corridor right-of-way between Calgary and Edmonton, as budgets warrant, following public consultation with affected landowners, including aboriginal groups.

5. The Government of Alberta should investigate the development of a regulatory model to allow for private investors who can raise both the capital for high-speed infrastructure and procurement of land to be able to go forward to build this necessary infrastructure.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ttee-1.2652342

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

But when you need to make a choice for not seeing money for 30 years, vs never again,

Could you explain that - I don't understand why that choice has to be made? (Again, not disagreeing just interested).

If you don't mind me asking, what is it you do MalcolmTucker? Some of the most interesting things I've read on this forum were posted by you.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Re capital: some of the committee witnesses said as much, and indicated that private capital would be willing to fund it once the province acquired a right of way. , and government reports a few times have said so. Hence the report saying:

4. The Government of Alberta should begin the process of acquiring land for a transportation/utility corridor right-of-way between Calgary and Edmonton, as budgets warrant, following public consultation with affected landowners, including aboriginal groups.

5. The Government of Alberta should investigate the development of a regulatory model to allow for private investors who can raise both the capital for high-speed infrastructure and procurement of land to be able to go forward to build this necessary infrastructure.

Which means we may be able to have our cake and eat it too, if the private sector steps up. If they don't, the province will have future proofed the corridor land at the very least.

The other part is about availability of money. Even if you make back the HSR cost, in the mean time you do not have the money of the original outlay. So choosing between something that is revenue neutral, and a true cost still involves a choice.

I used to work for the provincial government on the political side in Edmonton, where the team I led did many things including running the PC side of committees (the one that produced the report above being one of them). Now I work for the University of Calgary.

[Skyisnolimit]

Not needed Calgary is 3 hrs Red deer a 1/12 hrs . Waste of money for a project this scale.