Calgary Area Regional Transit

[Beltliner]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

^^Umm, I believe it was assumed by most people that all the trains would end their journey downtown, I just meant there should be stations also at the edge of Calgary for each line as well.

I've been dreaming of a grand central terminal around the Calgary Tower myself, which also would be the Bus terminal, and conenct the LRT and possible future streetcar networks as well and that damn HSR. Something truly spectacular, a modern day Penn Station (the old one..)

It would give the Calgary Tower meaning again as it would truly be the central landmark of the city.

A restored Palliser Station would be just about ideal for downtown transit integration, and the Line 203 connection to the Railtown TGV station would take some of the sting out not being able to walk right to everything.

[MalcolmTucker]

The Strathmore line would need a stop for Chestermere but beyond that I'm at a loss for the location of any station within Calgary.

Strathmore doesn't have any rail lines through it, around it, anywhere near it, as far as I can tell from satellite photos. To go to strathmore, dedicated lines would need to be built. Oh, I guess someone already remarked to this topic. Langdom lost its tracks too I think. I just assumed the ROW looking land was the transcanada pipeline, not reclaimed rail.

Chestermere fortunately has rail at the south end of the lake, but the line tacks to the NE with the last useful station at a crossing of the Trans Canada that I am calling 'New Town East' which would be a TOD built using MRT financing mechanisms.

As for Calgary's downtown station, Palliser Station would be good. A station similar to 125th St on the Metro North would be good in Inglewood on the future SE LRT and near the Greyhound station. It would relieve some capacity from Palliser Station and help the business district spread out.

[Wooster]

The reason I think an authority (to run all transit in the entire region) is a better way to go is system integration. In Toronto, if you commute by GO train into downtown and have to transfer to the subway you have to pay an entirely new fare. Similarly, unless you live right on the GO station, lots of people are taking a local bus service to get to GO.

Also if you cross municipal lines (say from York Region in to Toronto) you have to get off the bus, transfer to another bus and pay a separate fare. When metro areas practically function as one city and people's mobility patterns happen without regard to these boundaries, why should transit be operated based on these lines?

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by josh white

The reason I think an authority (to run all transit in the entire region) is a better way to go is system integration. In Toronto, if you commute by GO train into downtown and have to transfer to the subway you have to pay an entirely new fare. Similarly, unless you live right on the GO station, lots of people are taking a local bus service to get to GO.

Also if you cross municipal lines (say from York Region in to Toronto) you have to get off the bus, transfer to another bus and pay a separate fare. When metro areas practically function as one city and people's mobility patterns happen without regard to these boundaries, why should transit be operated based on these lines?

I can see your point, integration for the operation of the systems can only be a good thing. Where I see problems arising is in capital expenditures and such. I wouldn't want Calgary to lose out on some much needed LRT line because the Regional authority voted (as in every municipality but Calgary) to rebuild track out to Strathmore for commuter rail (I was unaware in my previous post that the track was ripped up, what a waste), or to purchase new rolling stock for the commuter rail, or what have you.

I don't really know what kind of relationship would be ideal, Beltliner's idea of Calgary Transit owning a 50%+1 stake in the new authority makes sense but I don't know if all the other municipalities would go with a system that gives Calgary the decision making ability.

So yeah, I'd want a system that integrates operations seamlessly but allows for the generation of funding, planning, and capital spending to be separated.

[jeffwhit]

^^ Does anyone know what the official relationship between the Chicago Transit Authority and Northeast Illinois Regional Commuter Railroad Corporation (Metra commuter rail) is? I noticed that Metra has links in their trip planners to MTA rail, I'm curious if there are any official alignment between the services.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by josh white

Also if you cross municipal lines (say from York Region in to Toronto) you have to get off the bus, transfer to another bus and pay a separate fare. When metro areas practically function as one city and people's mobility patterns happen without regard to these boundaries, why should transit be operated based on these lines?

A good argument for every unicity concept (of which regional rail is just a nuance). I've never understood how Toronto functioned. Err, sorry, the GTA. I know I'll get knifed by ninjas for suggesting that Toronto is in fact one big city.

[MalcolmTucker]

You just use the province land use format to help prevent sprawl, put a condition that if intercity rail is to be extended, a minimum density of 10 units per acre is put in place throughout the service area.

Southern Section

There are five lines that can be built without reacquiring or buying new ROW:
Cochrane (West) 40.25 km
High River (South) 65.4 km
Airdrie (North) 34.5 km
Chestermere/ New Town (East) 28 km
Carseland (SE) 50 km

New ROW would be required to run out to Strathmore, extending that line to 51.2 km.

Most of the towns have two stations, since i figured the further out stations would likely have a light maintenance facility. This is also since I deicded to keep costs down by not displacing currently used lots along the ROW near the downtowns, and leaving room for park and rides is important.

The Airdrie line could go further north, but I am not sure it would add much to it. There could also be a third east line, but it wouldn't hit any major centres (much like the Carseland line I guess)

Here is my source google map, where all the Station names include distances from the Palliser Station.

[shogged]

that station you have right on the "dewinton dot" is a waste. Thats right beside heritage lake, and I have a hard time believing they're going to park their lexuses (SP?) and bmws for a ride on the commuter rail

rest of it looks great though!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by shogged

that station you have right on the "dewinton dot" is a waste. Thats right beside heritage lake, and I have a hard time believing they're going to park their lexuses (SP?) and bmws for a ride on the commuter rail

rest of it looks great though!

At the intersection of two highways and atv the southern edge of city limits if the stopping time is fairly minimal I'd bet you could have a fairly large park and ride.

I wouldn't be surprised that the SLRT is in DeWinton in 30 years either.

[shogged]

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

At the intersection of two highways and atv the southern edge of city limits if the stopping time is fairly minimal I'd bet you could have a fairly large park and ride.

I wouldn't be surprised that the SLRT is in DeWinton in 30 years either.

you could! I just don't see anyone using it

[DizzyEdge]

So is there any advantage to the City of Calgary for this to come to fruition?

[mersar]

Biggest advantage that I know Bronco has brought up in the past is in relation to funding. Any regional system would mean that riders outside the city would be contributing more then they do currently, as there would undoubtedly be some money coming from property taxes from the surrounding areas into the system. If it was a two system setup (ala TTC and GO) then there would likely be some revenue sharing between the two via agreements for transfers, or a single across the region system the funding would be pooled between all the communities (which is partially how Translink works in the lower mainland from my understanding)

They also ran a small story on the commuter rail on Global tonight, the CRP was showing where they are heading. Starting with twinning the rail to Cochrane (around $500M), and sharing the rail to Airdrie and Okotoks, with those 2 legs getting twinned in the future. CP declined comment, but they did mention that unofficially CP had told the CRP that there is too much traffic on the mainline to schedule commuter in without twinning. And one transportation expert they talked to said that he could see it running in two years for the initial phase of rail. And they are supposedly also looking at the bus option in the interm as well (not to mention it may be an idea to keep the buses as a backup option even once the rail is running)

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by mersar

Biggest advantage that I know Bronco has brought up in the past is in relation to funding. Any regional system would mean that riders outside the city would be contributing more then they do currently, as there would undoubtedly be some money coming from property taxes from the surrounding areas into the system. If it was a two system setup (ala TTC and GO) then there would likely be some revenue sharing between the two via agreements for transfers, or a single across the region system the funding would be pooled between all the communities (which is partially how Translink works in the lower mainland from my understanding)

They also ran a small story on the commuter rail on Global tonight, the CRP was showing where they are heading. Starting with twinning the rail to Cochrane (around $500M), and sharing the rail to Airdrie and Okotoks, with those 2 legs getting twinned in the future. CP declined comment, but they did mention that unofficially CP had told the CRP that there is too much traffic on the mainline to schedule commuter in without twinning. And one transportation expert they talked to said that he could see it running in two years for the initial phase of rail. And they are supposedly also looking at the bus option in the interm as well (not to mention it may be an idea to keep the buses as a backup option even once the rail is running)

Once detailed (and hopefully accurate and nonideologically driven) budgets are brought forward and saner heads prevail none of this will see the light of day for decades. To spend that kind of money for the "benefit" of so few would be the ultimate in financial waste. The province made the transit announcement strictly for PR purposes. If they start to sense they are not getting the intended benefit (better international press coverage and less boycott talk) you can bet that they will cut the transit funding in short order.

One point that no one here seems to have caught on to or doesn't want to deal with is that the province is going to totally control what gets approved and how much money will be spent (they quickly learned their lesson from last year's infrastructure funding disaster). The Conservatives still need to rely on rural areas to maintain power in the future and there is no way in hell that these folks are going to allow Calgary to dictate how "their" money is spent. Realistically, if anything gets done people in places like Airdrie will see local transit systems setup. If enough does come Calgary's way I hope they use it to redesign the WLRT (tunnels where required and no screwing up of major roads) and build a tunnel downtown. The SE LRT is cost prohibitive and the entire LRT system has now become totally unsustainable from a financial perspective. Fix downtown and limit spending on the system to expanding platforms to 5 cars and buying new cars. No more new lines until we reach at least 2.5 million people.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why Calgary will get regional rail = politics. For the ring communities, they get a benefit, Calgary gets the ego boost of being a 'big city'. Province gets to say they brought transit to X# of people (even if the number of cars taken off the road is much smaller). Even better for stoking Calgary's ego, Edmonton will not get a similar system (they will get the stub LRT line to NAIT funded most likely)

Once regional transit is built up, they may even get the gall to build HSR since feeder networks will exist!

All these fit the pattern of a project that will have massive provincial support. The system will also have a name that emphasizes that it is provincially owned and funded.

There won't be many groups opposing this expenditure. Only taxpayers (which opposes everything) and maybe CFIB would oppose, maybe 'friends of parks' (which would put different sides of the environmental movement to fight eachother which the province loves to do) and while they have a constituency, it isn't enough to stop it.

For the size of expenditure the province wants to make, this makes sense, unless the city of Calgary assembles a P3 that can build the SE line for ~$800 million in provincial dollars, regional rail is the next most ready to build project that is something 'new'.

LRT in Calgary has shown it has the ability to generate ridership unlike buses, which is why in last quarter of '07 there was a big increase in transit ridership, but no increase in bus ridership. We aren't going to abandon that philosophy now (but this discussion if it continues in particular should go back on the Cal-Trans thread).

[wild wild west]

I think a regional commuter rail system is a great idea for the Calgary area. Considering the rapid growth of Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks and Chestermere, I would think a strong business case could be made. However, I don't think the expenditure of acquiring new ROW's and building a line to Strathmore could be justified based on their current population.

[jeffwhit]

^^Is there a ROW to Chestemere? That would be a good start so that line can be extended to Strathmore in the future should demand justify it.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by wild wild west

I think a regional commuter rail system is a great idea for the Calgary area. Considering the rapid growth of Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks and Chestermere, I would think a strong business case could be made. However, I don't think the expenditure of acquiring new ROW's and building a line to Strathmore could be justified based on their current population.

I think acquiring a ROW can always be justified, in fact it should be done as soon as possible. The line itself, which would be the majority of the cost, can wait forever but it would be foolish to let the land be built up with no plan to ever serve it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

^^Is there a ROW to Chestemere? That would be a good start so that line can be extended to Strathmore in the future should demand justify it.

At the south end of the lake, yes. Google Map.

[wild wild west]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I think acquiring a ROW can always be justified, in fact it should be done as soon as possible. The line itself, which would be the majority of the cost, can wait forever but it would be foolish to let the land be built up with no plan to ever serve it.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong - perhaps I worded it poorly, but definitely a right of way to Strathmore should be identified, and protected from development (which would either require actual acquisition of the ROW, or a co-ordinated regional planning approach between the various jurisdictions including in particular the MD to ensure that this use is identified in long-range planning). However building the line itself, I would think, should be quite a few years down the road - perhaps when Strathmore reaches, say, at least 30,000.

[lubicon]

As much as I like the concept of regional transit, given the fact that Calgary will likely 'only' see $1 billion of the money at best I think the money would be better spent on LRT within the city. The project that jumps out to me is the SELRT, and that is what I think they should focus on. It would likely serve the highest population, have the highest ridership, and do the most good to the most people.

If we look at the surrounding communities that would likely be served by regional rail, I would say those towns are: Airdie (~30 000), Cochrane (~15 000), Okotoks (~15 000), Chestermere (~5000), and maybe High River. That's approx 65 000 people, maybe 75-80 000 if you add in surrounding communities. Assuming 1/2 those people work (probably optimistic) that's maybe 35-40 000 people tops who would use the service. Of those 40 000 likely only half might work downtown which is where the trains likely would run. So you are looking at spending hundreds of millions of dollars for maybe 15-20 000 people. LRT would have much higher ridership as there are students etc who would also use this service. Add it all up and regional service just does not make sense, ASSUMING there will only be one or the other (regional rail vs LRT expansion). The money would be better spent within Calgary.

However Stelmach seems quite focused on more 'rural' issues, and politically I guess that makes sense as that is his power base. My fear is that we will see regional transit forced upon us at the expense of further LRT expansions inside both Edmonton and Calgary. I would love to see both go ahead if we had the resources, but if it comes down to a choice I have to go with LRT.