Halifax Stadium Discussion

[elly63]

Off topic, I see SMU is getting a new rink, 800 seats/200 standing room if I have it correctly.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by elly63

For some more idle speculation while we wait for an announcement, here's what they got for their money in Hamilton which might be similar to what happens here.

The big reveal

$145.7-million stadium features private boxes, wider seats and community access

The specs

• Permanent seating for 22,500 people (Ivor Wynne seats 30,000)
• Ability to expand to 40,000 for Grey Cup games
• 700 club seats
• 20 VIP suites
• 5.45-hectare footprint
• 180 parking spots (400 spots available at the current venue)
• Six elevators
• General admission seats are 21 inches wide; club seats are 22 inches and VIP seats are 24 inches wide — wider than industry standard
• Concession stands on all levels of the stadium
• Several hundred LED televisions to be installed in the concourses, washrooms and hospitality areas
• Meets international requirements for FIFA soccer and CFL football

The Money
• Overall cost is $145.7 million
• $119.1 to be spent on the stadium construction and design
• $26.6 million to be spent on “soft costs” such as project management, transaction fees and a contingency fund



The community
• Stadium to host about 1,400 hours of community use per year, including soccer, football, concerts and other community events
• Features public fitness and change rooms
• Designed to allow maximum sunlight on now-shadowed neighbouring streets
• Designed to minimize noise levels for neighbours
• Designed to meet barrier-free guidelines

Two things in particular stand out to me:

1. The 21 inch wide general admission seats. I believe standard seating on average is more along the lines of 19 inches wide. At one time it was more along the lines of 17 inches wide. Stadium builders copying Tim Hortons Field could either put about 10% more seats for the same sized structure, or could have a slightly smaller structure featuring a similar capacity.

2. A stadium placed in a location like Dartmouth Crossing is obviously going to require more than 180 parking spots.

Regardless, this demonstrates that it would not be necessary to spend north of $200 million to build a CFL-calibre stadium.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

Regardless, this demonstrates that it would not be necessary to spend north of $200 million to build a CFL-calibre stadium.

The 33.5k Winnipeg stadium started at 190 million and added 10 million worth of LED ribbons IIRC. Downsize that by 10k seats and take away 35 million for the showpiece roof and you can get a very nice design for under 200 million. Of course things aren't that simple but this IS idle speculation until we get some concrete news.

[elly63]

Nova Scotia unlikely to use new federal infrastructure money on stadium: premier
3Down Staff April 10, 2018

Nova Scotia will get $828 million in federal infrastructure funding over the next 10 years but the premier says it’s unlikely the money will be used towards a new stadium to house a CFL franchise.

The provincial and federal governments announced an agreement on Tuesday that makes Nova Scotia the seventh province or territory to sign on to the $180-billion, 12-year Investing in Canada Plan. Much of the money goes to small, cash-strapped communities.

Premier Stephen McNeil said the money would assist with water and sewer projects and other provincial priorities including the twinning of 100-series highways, the expansion of broadband internet in rural areas, and construction of a new art gallery in Halifax.

Reporters asked McNeil whether this was an opportunity to help fund a Halifax stadium that might attract a potential CFL franchise. McNeil downplayed the possibility but said the province would look at all projects brought forward under the program.

“While this is a substantial amount of money, the need is great in our province,” he said. “We need to make sure we address the issues that we have no choice but to do. Municipalities are mandated by law to deal with the water and sewer issues and we have to make sure those are our priority.”

McNeil said the long-term nature of the funding would help with planning for projects that will benefit the entire province. He said there would also be the opportunity to draw in private sector help.

The money would also allow the province to help fund infrastructure projects in its 13 Mi’kmaq communities as well as provide some relief for struggling towns and villages.

Under the plan’s first phase, the federal government has approved nearly 3,500 projects across Canada worth $8.4 billion.

[ILoveHalifax]

I have been to the Art Gallery of NS and I believe there were 3 to 5 staff there and 5 to 10 people there at the time; didn't stay all that long.
25,000 people would attend a CFL game and in addition the team would create tremendous civic pride, as well as pride for all Nova Scotians. Major league sports teams do a lot to put a place in the spotlight.
I understand the need for a new gallery and would hope for some kind of iconic building but to tackle that project before a stadium, I just don't comprehend. WHY is the idea of a stadium/CFL team so far down the list of our elected officials? ? ?

I suspect more people would travel from around the whole province to 1 game than what drives to Halifax to visit the art gallery in a very long time.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I have been to the Art Gallery of NS and I believe there were 3 to 5 staff there and 5 to 10 people there at the time; didn't stay all that long.
25,000 people would attend a CFL game and in addition the team would create tremendous civic pride, as well as pride for all Nova Scotians. Major league sports teams do a lot to put a place in the spotlight.
I understand the need for a new gallery and would hope for some kind of iconic building but to tackle that project before a stadium, I just don't comprehend. WHY is the idea of a stadium/CFL team so far down the list of our elected officials? ? ?

I suspect more people would travel from around the whole province to 1 game than what drives to Halifax to visit the art gallery in a very long time.

But, the arts!!!

AGNS does very little marketing and promotion, and what they do of that is not well done. It is in a location few people know about with little street presence and non-existent access if you are not arriving on foot.

Whether their collection and displays are worth a visit I cannot say. I attended a few events there some years back and was not particularly impressed. I suspect it is like most things run by the provincial govt - underfunded, no real vision, not customer-oriented, run by people who are not leaders in their field, and generally delivering meh-quality results.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Whether their collection and displays are worth a visit I cannot say. I attended a few events there some years back and was not particularly impressed. I suspect it is like most things run by the provincial govt - underfunded, no real vision, not customer-oriented, run by people who are not leaders in their field, and generally delivering meh-quality results.

Ouch!!

Compare that to the Beaverbrook Art Gallery in Fredericton - a downtown jewel on prime property on the riverfront, recently completed a multimillion dollar expansion and with a world class collection (Dali, Gainsborough, Turner etc).

Everyone in NB knows about the Beaverbrook Gallery. It's the provinces #1 cultural institution, probably more important than the NB Museum in Saint John.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Ouch!!

Compare that to the Beaverbrook Art Gallery in Fredericton - a downtown jewel on prime property on the riverfront, recently completed a multimillion dollar expansion and with a world class collection (Dali, Gainsborough, Turner etc).

Everyone in NB knows about the Beaverbrook Gallery. It's the provinces #1 cultural institution, probably more important than the NB Museum in Saint John.

Keith is being cranky. The AGNS is among the best small galleries in the country. I have some issues with its leadership, but it does a very fine job and occupies an important place in the city's cultural life.

I don't know where the 25,000 annual attendance cited above comes from either; the AGNS annual report shows 45,000 annual attendance.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Keith is being cranky. The AGNS is among the best small galleries in the country. I have some issues with its leadership, but it does a very fine job and occupies an important place in the city's cultural life.

I stand by my comment. It has done a very poor job of integrating itself into the city's cultural fabric. Part of that is due to the location/facility, part due to leadership, and part of that is due to the collection. Need I remind you of the Leibovitz debacle?

[ILoveHalifax]

A CFL team/stadium is not just for the 25,000 who attend in person but the rest of the city who watches on TV, the involvement of players in local civic/social activities, and the great number across the country and USA who participate via the TV and media

I am not knocking the AGNS but the numbers just don't compare

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I stand by my comment. It has done a very poor job of integrating itself into the city's cultural fabric. Part of that is due to the location/facility, part due to leadership, and part of that is due to the collection. Need I remind you of the Leibovitz debacle?

No argument on the Liebovitz situation. That's part of my troubles with its management. Still, a valuable and important institution.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

A CFL team/stadium is not just for the 25,000 who attend in person but the rest of the city who watches on TV, the involvement of players in local civic/social activities, and the great number across the country and USA who participate via the TV and media

I am not knocking the AGNS but the numbers just don't compare

At first thought, a football stadium and an art gallery are like an apples/oranges comparison, but, yes, it's all money and there's only so much of it, so what would give us more bang for the buck?

Similar to the article I posted in the Nova Centre thread. Ideally if we can afford all of them it's best for the majority of the population as it gives us a diversity of activities, but if we have to decide between the options, then maybe a stadium is more bang for the buck.

[someone123]

Can't you watch football on TV regardless of whether or not a stadium is built in Halifax?

We don't know what the budget for the new gallery will be, what else will be included with it, and what the expected future attendance is. That 45,000 annual attendance figure is for the old AGNS.

It's not an apples to oranges comparison, it's one where we put on blindfolds, grab the tails of two animals, and then debate the relative merits of zebras and elephants.

More broadly Halifax is a provincial capital and regional centre approaching half a million people. It can support a stadium and a new art gallery if those are both priorities. It is fine to say in the abstract that the project with the best cost to benefit should be built but at the end of the day this is unknowable and subjective, and it is debatable how much money should be raised by government and spent. There is value in building the broad amenities that people have come to expect in major cities, and picking a few areas of relative strength to excel in.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Can't you watch football on TV regardless of whether or not a stadium is built in Halifax?

We don't know what the budget for the new gallery will be, what else will be included with it, and what the expected future attendance is. That 45,000 annual attendance figure is for the old AGNS.

It's not an apples to oranges comparison, it's one where we put on blindfolds, grab the tails of two animals, and then debate the relative merits of zebras and elephants.

More broadly Halifax is a provincial capital and regional centre approaching half a million people. It can support a stadium and a new art gallery if those are both priorities. It is fine to say in the abstract that the project with the best cost to benefit should be built but at the end of the day this is unknowable and subjective, and it is debatable how much money should be raised by government and spent. There is value in building the broad amenities that people have come to expect in major cities, and picking a few areas of relative strength to excel in.

I think ILoveHalifax was alluding to the fact that you could watch it on TV, which means that the rest of the country could as well, which puts Halifax on the map to the rest of the country. Up to this point, Halifax has never had a team in a top-line national league, thus our notoriety has been mostly regional among sports fans in the country. I don't know if you can quantify the benefits of such notoriety, but clearly it would help Halifax become recognized as more than 'one of those have-not places on the east coast' (as viewed from the point of view of most everybody not in the Atlantic provinces).

I would, and will, argue that it is more of an apples to oranges comparison vs the scenario you described. The characteristics and costs of football stadiums in general are well known, as are the characteristics and costs of art galleries/cultural centres - in general. It's more like ordering at Mcdonald's than some mysterious voodoo scenario that nobody knows anything about but likes to discuss for the fun of it. You pull up to the drive through, and have to decide if you want/need/can afford a regular burger and fries, or the Big Mac combo... or something else. And therein lies the 'debate' - how much money are we willing to spend for what grade of facility, and how much of it should be funded through the tax base... and everybody will have a differing opinion of what the 'right' answer would be.

Clearly the clientele of such facilities will have some overlap and some who will attend one but not the other, but they are both meant as entertainment to a certain degree... much like apples and oranges - both fruit, some like both, some like one or the other, some don't like either. In that sense, they are both relevant/important on that basis but not in the same league as something more practical like a water treatment plant, or transit. Nobody would debate whether we should spend our money on sewer pipes vs a stadium...

I agree that we should not have to choose between a cultural centre and a stadium, and I hope we won't have to, but that was the idea presented, so that was the idea being discussed.

[MonctonRad]

A CFL team in Halifax by definition would make Halifax a "major league city" (as long as you consider the CFL a "major" league).

A CFL team is a big deal. It will certainly increase the stature of the city (and the region) in the rest of the country.

[ILoveHalifax]

Yes, Someone, I do watch football on TV most every Sunday throughout the season and right on thru Superbowl. BUT I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH THE BC LIONS, my point I have no skin in the game. I do watch NFL and cheer for Tampa and New England and occasionally Miami. I would make a point to watch a Halifax team if it were on TV.
My post was in response to the Premier's comments above whereby he stated there would be no money for a stadium but some for a new art gallery.
I think he needs to look at the figures - does he represent only the 45,000 who visit the AGNS or the 250,000 who would attend a season of football. Seems to me he is partial to the 45,000 (are there people there who donate to his well being?) - Just saying
Dartmouth has done a great job about the apples and oranges and I like them both but don't want one excluded.

[JHikka]

What's the cost certainty on an art gallery? Do we have examples of ROI for art galleries either in profit or in debt?

Looking at this strictly financially, the province may be weary of cost overruns and profit/loss...OSEG loses money on Lansdowne, Tim Hortons Field is embroiled in lawsuits, and BC Place stadium had cost overruns. Mosaic Stadium isn't in the clear on its total cost and expenditure, and interest amounts are growing on IGF Field.

Perhaps the province is concerned about sinking money into something without guaranteed certainty that those figures won't grow once things start rolling.

[terrynorthend]

Rugby Canada is advertising an International Test Match between Canada and the US on June 23, at the newly refurbished 6000 seat Wanderers Ground Stadium in Halifax. They tout it as the first event in the new stadium, so it sounds like a permanent venue.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I agree that we should not have to choose between a cultural centre and a stadium, and I hope we won't have to, but that was the idea presented, so that was the idea being discussed.

The elephant in the room is that we need a replacement for the VG hospital far more than either of those things.

[pblaauw]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

But, the arts!!!

AGNS does very little marketing and promotion, and what they do of that is not well done. It is in a location few people know about with little street presence and non-existent access if you are not arriving on foot.

Whether their collection and displays are worth a visit I cannot say. I attended a few events there some years back and was not particularly impressed. I suspect it is like most things run by the provincial govt - underfunded, no real vision, not customer-oriented, run by people who are not leaders in their field, and generally delivering meh-quality results.

Never mind the fact that thousands of people walk by it daily on the way to/from the ferry. Not right next to it, but still.

I've been inside. It's quite nice. And wheelchair accessible. I assume by "not arriving on foot" you mean "there's nowhere to park." I believe they have bike racks, though.