Halifax Stadium Discussion

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

As someone who does not and will never use bike lanes or the palatial library, I hereby request a refund.

I could have phrased it differently and said road improvements and transit as they are just as relevant.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by elly63

If you've read the thread you will find that I said in response to the amount of public funding that should go towards the stadium "As much as the local citizenry is willing to bear. If they want to pay for everything, great, if they want to pay for nothing that's great too."

That's fine, though I don't get the impression that you'd really think it's great if people wanted to pay 'nothing' and a stadium didn't get built. I wouldn't think it's great either, BTW.

FWIW, I don't get the impression that the citizens will get to vote on whether the money is given or not, so it's basically an academic argument.

Originally Posted by elly63

Perhaps then can you tell me how by even the biggest stretch of imagination how Colin's articles on FIFA corruption are relevant here. We're not talking about building a 70k+ white elephant or doling out millions for security for a cities allotted few games. We are talking about a 24k stadium that will get pan community usage for decades and is needed infrastructure for Halifax. That is using information that we know that has come from the ownership group not Colin's unsubstantiated and/or off topic FUD. If we used the example that we need to pave the roads and house the homeless and build new hospitals, we'd never have new museums or libraries either. They are not mutually exclusive (that we can have both a hospital and a stadium).

I agree that not all of Colin's posted links are directly applicable to our situation, however I believe it is advantageous to understand what has happened in other places. Again, not that we will have a choice in the matter, so it's for discussion only.

Originally Posted by elly63

On topic opinions are important. I don't need anyone to tell me I come across as a prick sometimes (not saying you are saying that) but that's how you have to deal with some of these people. I have no problem at all with those who pose pertinent facts, that are substantiated, but this off topic distraction stuff, that has no basis in anything we know so far has to be refuted.

Like the Commonwealth Games bid, this will only get done if it is palatable to the public, if it isn't we won't have to worry about it.

I didn't think you came across as a prick... more like enthusiastic and direct, which I appreciate actually. I will say from experience that sometimes refuting doesn't really have the desired impact - it can tend to just further dilute the topic rather than support it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by elly63

While we're at it, let's get this part straightened out. While a CFL team is the impetus for this project it would be crazy to suggest they will be the sole benefactors. The only way for this to work is to have everyone benefit. Pro football, university football, local minor football, community soccer, rugby, lacrosse, winter community usage with a bubble, offices and community meeting rooms, this is the only way it will be a total success. Earlier in the thread I detailed some other ideas that could possibly be implemented to create usage.

Again we would have to look at the Ottawa model, and that is relevant because that is what the Halifax ownership group says they are basing their plans on and see what kind of usage they are getting out of their facility and see if that is relatable or not to this situation.

Good points. I appreciate your noting that this could function almost as a community centre as much as a CFL stadium. However I do question to what extent that the other parties would be agreeable to allowing this to happen, but I guess that depends on how the whole deal is worked out - details that we do not have.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's fine, though I don't get the impression that you'd really think it's great if people wanted to pay 'nothing' and a stadium didn't get built.

There's some truth in that but I would rather it not get built, than go through what they did the second time around in Ottawa with the poor ownership. That damn near killed the idea of football in Ottawa and thanks to the perseverance and stubbornness of some guys with some heavy duty coin they were able to bring it back from the dead to much success.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Good points. I appreciate your noting that this could function almost as a community centre as much as a CFL stadium. However I do question to what extent that the other parties would be agreeable to allowing this to happen, but I guess that depends on how the whole deal is worked out - details that we do not have.

In the new world of sports business, the stadium has to be seen as a place where people congregate for things other than a bimonthly event. Be it the stadium itself or an adjunct you want people to be used to being in that vicinity... often.

It might be shops and restaurants like Ottawa or Edmonton for example has its Commonwealth Community Recreation Centre next to the stadium and also the Downtown Community Arena built into Rogers Place.

If you want to survive in this new world you have to be open to the changing marketplace and new ideas. Even the once venerable NFL is now vulnerable. You can't be cocky about your place in the market. I like Commissioner Ambrosie's attitude about the success in Ottawa. "People showed up for a party and a football game broke out."

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

It might be shops and rstaurants like Ottawa or Edmonton for example has its Commonwealth Community Recreation Centre next to the stadium and also the Downtown Community Arena built into Rogers Place.

Part of the reason why these work so well, especially Lansdowne in Ottawa, is because they're located centrally in a very urban part of the city. It's very easy to go to the stadium area on non-sport days (i'm personally there more for the theatres and gym than any sporting events). Lansdowne is on the way to many places and is accessible to a large swath of Ottawa by foot. It's accessible and nearby and easy for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit users to get to.

Halifax would do well with a similar setup in an urban setting (Peninsula, perhaps Shannon Park less so) but most of the potential locations don't feed into that same mold as Lansdowne. If you're building in Dartmouth Crossing you're probably looking at a CTC/Tanger Outlets type of building or a sports stadium surrounded by box stores: Near to a highway with loads of parking for everyone who doesn't live nearby. It's a completely different environment and vibe.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

but I guess that depends on how the whole deal is worked out - details that we do not have.

We can have fun speculating or do some amateur planning but that which is bolded is what it's all about.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Near to a highway with loads of parking for everyone who doesn't live nearby. It's a completely different environment and vibe.

Oh, I agree, if the general consensus passes that it is Dartmouth Crossing, but I'm always shocked at how many people go to a damn Costco.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Halifax would do well with a similar setup in an urban setting (Peninsula, perhaps Shannon Park less so) but most of the potential locations don't feed into that same mold as Lansdowne. If you're building in Dartmouth Crossing you're probably looking at a CTC/Tanger Outlets type of building or a sports stadium surrounded by box stores: Near to a highway with loads of parking for everyone who doesn't live nearby. It's a completely different environment and vibe.

There are tons of underused or empty sites around the city that could be turned into great mixed-use developments with a stadium component that would be much better than developing Dartmouth Crossing. Halifax and Dartmouth are full of giant holes in their urban fabric as well as large swaths of public space that are devoid of people 95% of the time or more.

Some examples:

- Wanderer Grounds
- Gorsebrook Park (right between Dal and SMU)
- Shannon Park
- Penhorn
- Wyse Road area
- Kempt Road area
- Seaport area
- North of Fairview Cove

They'd all be a bit more complicated than Dartmouth Crossing but they'd be a lot better for the city and the stadium in the long run. Many of these sites are in embarrassingly poor shape right now, woefully undeveloped for how central they are.

I think the obsession with picking the cheapest and easiest possible greenfield sites in Halifax is part of the same old small-town mentality. Spending $10-20M more on land and redevelopment or taking a few extra years in planning is worth it when we are talking about a $100-200M+ redevelopment that will be around for many decades.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

There are tons of underused or empty sites around the city that could be turned into great mixed-use developments with a stadium component that would be much better than developing Dartmouth Crossing. Halifax and Dartmouth are full of giant holes in their urban fabric as well as large swaths of public space that nobody really knows what to do with.

I agree, which is why they should be pursuing them as much as possible.

Originally Posted by someone123

They'd all be a bit more complicated than Dartmouth Crossing but they'd be a lot better for the city and the stadium in the long run. Many of these sites are in embarrassingly poor shape right now, woefully undeveloped for how central they are.

I'm guessing lands costs would be higher in central areas of the city, which presumably is where additional public funding would be needed. Depends on how much the project is eyeballing for total costs.

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the obsession with picking the cheapest and easiest possible greenfield sites in Halifax is part of the same old small-town mentality. Spending $10-20M more on land and redevelopment or taking a few extra years in planning is worth it when we are talking about a $100-200M+ redevelopment that will be around for many decades.

Right, which comes back to changing that small town mentality and getting people used to medium-sized stadiums first. Most in Atlantic Canada don't understand why a project takes 5-7 years from first announcements to completion, and many expect that as soon as an announcement is made for there to be shovels in the ground immediately. A year or two go by and people start moaning about how the project hasn't started and has probably failed. It's a frustrating mentality to deal with on the daily.

For me, i'm worried about the project going cheap and easy and ending up in Dartmouth Crossing with a plan that doesn't ultimately meet its potential. We've all seen stadiums end up outside of urban centres and end up as abject failures in the span of a decade with the tenant looking for other options, and hopefully Halifax will avoid that ending.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some examples:

- Wanderer Grounds
- Gorsebrook Park (right between Dal and SMU)
- Shannon Park
- Penhorn
- Wyse Road area
- Kempt Road area
- Seaport area
- North of Fairview Cove

Penhorn has enough space and is very accessible, but it is also more desirable for intense residential development as outlined in the Centre Plan. Wanderer, Gorsebrook,Wyse,Seaport don't have the space and I don't see any space North of Fairview cove.
Brightwood has the most potential but probably better as part of a sports campus for all users.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Penhorn has enough space and is very accessible, but it is also more desirable for intense residential development as outlined in the Centre Plan. Wanderer, Gorsebrook,Wyse,Seaport don't have the space and I don't see any space North of Fairview cove.
Brightwood has the most potential but probably better as part of a sports campus for all users.

I based these on the footprint of Hamilton's stadium. It would fit in all of the locations I listed without any major demolition (in some cases there would be minor road realignments).

These sites wouldn't all have space for acres of surface parking but that style of development is exactly what the city should be avoiding in the first place. The stadium should be served by a mix of transit modes and should use structured parking or ideally take advantage of parking that's already there. The Wanderer Grounds are a short walk from tons of parking in the downtown area as well as other attractions and hotels for visitors.

There's enough space at Penhorn for a stadium plus other development.

Brightwood could be a good site too, but it's more than just an empty field or parking lots right now. Its transportation connections aren't very good either, and it's surrounded by quiet residential neighbourhoods.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I based these on the footprint of Hamilton's stadium. It would fit in all of the locations I listed without any major demolition (in some cases there would be minor road realignments).

I would be interested in seeing THF laid over Gorsebrook Park but my very quick paint skills lead me to believe that everything within the Park (between South/Robie/Inglis/Wellington) would have to be demolished to make it work. I could be wrong. It would be an ideal location.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I would be interested in seeing THF laid over Gorsebrook Park but my very quick paint skills lead me to believe that everything within the Park (between South/Robie/Inglis/Wellington) would have to be demolished to make it work. I could be wrong. It would be an ideal location.

I believe Fenwick16 did that once, and a stadium would fit.

I've always been partial to Gorsebrook as a potential site for a stadium downtown. It's right between SMU and Dalhousie and could get good usage from both universities. It's also within reasonable walking distance of the core.

I imagine the landed gentry in the surrounding neighbourhoods would have a collective stroke in such a scenario though.........

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by someone123

I based these on the footprint of Hamilton's stadium. It would fit in all of the locations I listed without any major demolition (in some cases there would be minor road realignments).

These sites wouldn't all have space for acres of surface parking but that style of development is exactly what the city should be avoiding in the first place. The stadium should be served by a mix of transit modes and should use structured parking or ideally take advantage of parking that's already there. The Wanderer Grounds are a short walk from tons of parking in the downtown area as well as other attractions and hotels for visitors.

There's enough space at Penhorn for a stadium plus other development.

Brightwood could be a good site too, but it's more than just an empty field or parking lots right now. Its transportation connections aren't very good either, and it's surrounded by quiet residential neighbourhoods.

Agree with all of this. My #1 choice is Gorsebrook Park so that it could be used by SMU, Dalhousie, and CFL. The limited space would force it to be transit focused as there really isn't any space for parking. Huskies Stadium could be taken down so that SMU could expand. Likewise, Wickwire Field could be turned over to university dormitories/buildings.

The residents across from Gorsebrook Park would cry bloody murder though.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I believe Fenwick16 did that once, and a stadium would fit.

I've always been partial to Gorsebrook as a potential site for a stadium downtown. It's right between SMU and Dalhousie and could get good usage from both universities. It's also within reasonable walking distance of the core.

I imagine the landed gentry in the surrounding neighbourhoods would have a collective stroke in such a scenario though.........

I'm wondering if its vicinity with relation to the hospitals would be a problem for noise...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm wondering if its vicinity with relation to the hospitals would be a problem for noise...

Doubt it. They'll be tearing down the VGH in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Is that little school on the corner of Inglis and Robie still there? That would have to be moved........

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Doubt it. They'll be tearing down the VGH in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Is that little school on the corner of Inglis and Robie still there? That would have to be moved........

I was thinking more of the IWK, actually.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Doubt it. They'll be tearing down the VGH in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Is that little school on the corner of Inglis and Robie still there? That would have to be moved........

Still there. And hell will freeze over before it is torn down - full of upper income south end kids.
Brightwood is next to the major transit terminal at the McD bridge.
Which space is 'North of Fairview Cove' ? Do you mean the infill to the NE ?

[Keith P.]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to wreck nice, quiet, attractive residential neighborhoods by shoehorning a stadium without parking or access into them. So forget Gorsebrook or Brightwood.

The problem with Wyse Rd isn't that so much as the fact the the land is all privately owned and hence expensive. The part of it adjacent to the MacD bridge is a good location otherwise. Not sure there's enough land for ancilliaries.

Wanders Grounds gives me a headache. You cannot park there right now with the hospitals and it gets even worse once HRM takes away the remaining on-street parking to create you-know-whats. Traffic and access is hopeless too. Forget it.

Seaport lands are federal and hard though not impossible to acquire with the right connections. However access is hopeless. And anything on the ocean is 10 degrees cooler than a few blocks away, an advantage only at peak summertime. Nope.

The only practical location on the peninsula is the area around Windsor Park. Again it is federal land with the same challenges, bit it is ideally sited and access is excellent. Failing that it is DC I am afraid.