Halifax Stadium Discussion

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Certainly Saint Mary's would move their games there. You would also get the AUS playoff there. Concerts and music festivals would be viable for HRM finally. You could also get the Mooseheads to do a "Winter Classic" type outdoor game there. Rugby and soccer games would likely occur. Aside from all that, it could easily be used for exhibitions, trade shows, auto shows, and various other outdoor events. I have no idea the number of paying dates it would attract but certainly more than 25. Now, whether that makes money I have no idea.

I don't know why people constantly post about being in use ten times a year. Seriously, people, please stop posting this and think about it.

I would think most of the use would be public so I don't think it should be seen as a money making venture. I doubt if it would be profitable but we don't hold the same thoughts towards libraries or museums, all of which should be a among a fair sized cities' infrastructure.

[elly63]

Would you support a 25 year property tax break on land for a stadium in HRM?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

And you need to stop to stop making up worst case scenarios against it because it isn't a soccer stadium. You'd be all for it, if it was.

Nonsense. I haven't made any post re worst case.
A stadium can be used for many sports. I just think this will be a financial mess.
There is no credible case for a stadium costing $150,000,000 and the CFL guys know it.
McNeil is being coy when he says no money from 'general revenues', which indicates he is counting on people not understanding what 'general revenues' means.
So how profitable is a CFL franchise and is the league on a stable foundation ?
IKEA came here, paid for the land and building with its own cash, the developer of Dartmouth Crossing paid for the roads and utilities and IKEA will pay property taxes as long as it is in business. Same for the new Kent store. Same for the new hotel.
And HRM makes money from private enterprise without risking a penny of taxpayers money. How sweet it is.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Nonsense. I haven't made any post re worst case.

If that is Colinspeak for every post you make, I guess that's true.

[elly63]

Surprisingly, because most people who call into these shows are usually negative, ill informed whiners, the callers were overwhelmingly positive on the subject of a new stadium.

I appreciated the positivity of the callers, did not appreciate the total lack of knowledge of Alex J Walling, sounds like he should retire. Case in point, he wanted the stadium to accommodate both baseball and track, a kiss of death that even soccer and football fans could agree on. Apparently Rick Howe isn't exactly a rocket scientist on this subject either.

The Rick Howe Show – Thursday, July 12, 2018

9am

Mayor Mike Savage joins the show to talk about a Halifax potentially getting a stadium. Regional Council will discuss the issue this coming Tuesday. We’ll get the mayor’s thoughts. Halifax City councillor Waye Mason joins Rick to continue the stadium debate. If it goes forward, Mason would rather see less seats than more seats. Why is that? Wouldn’t more be better?

10am

It’s the Open Hour where anything goes!

11am

Alex Walling joins us for an hour long discussion about a new stadium. Rick will also take calls during the hour. It’s an all stadium hour on the Rick Howe Show!

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

If that is Colinspeak for every post you make, I guess that's true.

I'll wager you do not know what 'General Revenue' means and why McNeil used the two words.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Colin May

So how profitable is a CFL franchise and is the league on a stable foundation ?
IKEA came here, paid for the land and building with its own cash, the developer of Dartmouth Crossing paid for the roads and utilities and IKEA will pay property taxes as long as it is in business. Same for the new Kent store. Same for the new hotel.

Cultural assets in Canada tend not to be self sustaining. Museums, galleries, ballet, opera, theatre, and sports all get subsidized to varying degrees as they're deemed to have intangible benefits to society.

The problem with professional sports teams is that most are privately owned so the optics of subsidization isn't good. That doesn't mean that there isn't a cultural benefit.

In Canada, arenas/stadia typically only get built when we're hosting an international event like the Pan American Games. Even in the US, arenas/stadia do not make money. Cities/provinces have to decide what level of subsidy they're comfortable with.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Cultural assets in Canada tend not to be self sustaining. Museums, galleries, ballet, opera, theatre, and sports all get subsidized to varying degrees as they're deemed to have intangible benefits to society.

The problem with professional sports teams is that most are privately owned so the optics of subsidization isn't good. That doesn't mean that there isn't a cultural benefit.

In Canada, arenas/stadia typically only get built when we're hosting an international event like the Pan American Games. Even in the US, arenas/stadia do not make money. Cities/provinces have to decide what level of subsidy they're comfortable with.

Exactly. Meanwhile HRM is lavishly funding a library system that is apparently so rich they can afford to build playgrounds, install hammocks, and loan out musical instruments. I suspect it won't be long before they start up a car or bike share program at this rate. Let's not forget the $10 million bike flyover either along with all the other unused bike lanes they are throwing money into. HRM crying poor (as opposed to the province which is broke under the burden of the insatiable health care beast) rings quite hollow.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I'll wager you do not know what 'General Revenue' means and why McNeil used the two words.

I'll wager if this was for the auld country footy you wouldn't have a problem layin' out 500 million.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The problem with professional sports teams is that most are privately owned so the optics of subsidization isn't good. That doesn't mean that there isn't a cultural benefit.

...

Cities/provinces have to decide what level of subsidy they're comfortable with.

I agree with this perspective. It comes down to a judgement about the value per public dollar. If the project is part privately funded the value might be pretty high.

I think one key is articulating all of the non-CFL uses the stadium would be good for. Halifax has no big permanent event space suitable for 25,000+ people. A stadium would be useful for concerts and lots of other things (just look at Rogers Centre or BC Place; they don't sit empty every day the main sports team isn't playing). It shouldn't just be marketed as a CFL stadium, and some public subsidy makes sense to the degree that it's a standard piece of infrastructure for the city and, really, the whole region. The Maritimes have almost 2 million people and no major stadium.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

I'll wager if this was for the auld country footy you wouldn't have a problem layin' out 500 million.

Thank you for indirectly confirming that you don't know the definition of 'General revenues'.
I believe professional sports should pay there own way and pay for their own facilities - every ground I visited in the UK was owned and paid for by the club without any public money. Almost all clubs even down to the semi-pro leagues play on their own ground.
I'll wager you cannot name 6 professional clubs in the UK that play in a government financed and operated stadium. And feel free to name any pro rugby clubs who play in a government financed and owned stadium.
N America is full of suckers who support funded pro sports stadia/arenas.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Thank you for indirectly confirming that you don't know the definition of 'General revenues'.
I believe professional sports should pay there own way and pay for their own facilities - every ground I visited in the UK was owned and paid for by the club without any public money. Almost all clubs even down to the semi-pro leagues play on their own ground.
I'll wager you cannot name 6 professional clubs in the UK that play in a government financed and operated stadium. And feel free to name any pro rugby clubs who play in a government financed and owned stadium.
N America is full of suckers who support funded pro sports stadia/arenas.

In case you haven't noticed we live in Canada, if the auld country was so great why did you leave it? Nobody gives a rat's ass about how they do things there, it has nothing to do with our situation here.

So North America is full of suckers and yet you think it is a better place to live by voting with your feet. We are the suckers if we take anything you say seriously.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Thank you for indirectly confirming that you don't know the definition of 'General revenues'.
I believe professional sports should pay there own way and pay for their own facilities - every ground I visited in the UK was owned and paid for by the club without any public money. Almost all clubs even down to the semi-pro leagues play on their own ground.
I'll wager you cannot name 6 professional clubs in the UK that play in a government financed and operated stadium. And feel free to name any pro rugby clubs who play in a government financed and owned stadium.
N America is full of suckers who support funded pro sports stadia/arenas.

Colin, you've stated that before and I've personally proven you wrong. Almost all have been helped by the public purse.

General Revenue is the dollars collected by governments by taxes or fees, and many millions of dollars go from smart governments into building public infrastructure. Small minded thinking in this city and province has left our only major metropolitan area with a massive infrastructure deficit.

[Keith P.]

One of the no doubt many disconnects is that HRM collects only property taxes and thus do not directly benefit from additional economic activity, making property tax incentives largely a non-starter from an economic perspective. That (in the form of sales and income taxes) would accrue to the province and the feds. But HRM is flush with cash while the province is broke. The feds have tons of money of course (even if it is all debt financing) but we have traditionally not done well at tapping into that stream. A conundrum.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Colin, you've stated that before and I've personally proven you wrong. Almost all have been helped by the public purse.

General Revenue is the dollars collected by governments by taxes or fees, and many millions of dollars go from smart governments into building public infrastructure. Small minded thinking in this city and province has left our only major metropolitan area with a massive infrastructure deficit.

As I recall your list of UK clubs receiving government funding for a stadium was clearly debunked. I already agreed that W Ham and Man City were beneficiaries of stadia which were used for the London Olympic Games and Manchester Commonwealth Games, much to the disgust of fans of many other teams.
Try again, there are only 20 teams in the Premier league and providing names and amounts of public money given to teams should be at your fingertips. Feel free to list clubs that have spent their own money on a new or improved stadium.
I am interested in any listing of a 'massive infrastructure deficit' in metro, other than affordable housing and medical facilities.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ticle25563294/

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think one key is articulating all of the non-CFL uses the stadium would be good for. Halifax has no big permanent event space suitable for 25,000+ people. A stadium would be useful for concerts and lots of other things (just look at Rogers Centre or BC Place; they don't sit empty every day the main sports team isn't playing). It shouldn't just be marketed as a CFL stadium, and some public subsidy makes sense to the degree that it's a standard piece of infrastructure for the city and, really, the whole region. The Maritimes have almost 2 million people and no major stadium.

Your point is an important one, someone123. It underscores my own suspicion that Maritime Football League is rapidly watching the window close on the generation of needed public enthusiasm and support for their venture. MFL has done little to build consumer interest to date and has generally left its critics unanswered.

Another of these can be found today in the Herald's editorial pages. Exhibitions guru Jon Denman insists that taxpayers should not be funding an "imaginary pot of gold at the end of the rainbow." (I do find a certain irony in Mr. Denman's defence of the embattled taxpayer, given that his shows for years occupied the publicly-funded white elephant that was Exhibition Park.)

Denman repeats the critics' contention that the stadium will be used for only "10 or 12 game dates per year". But he is not wrong in asking that MFL and proponents of the stadium be clear about what other events the stadium will be used for.

A review of other CFL stadia shows that all have at least three or four regular tenants. Regina's new Mosaic Stadium (with over 33,000 seats in a city with a metro population that is 178,000 fewer than Halifax) hosts not only the Saskatchewan Roughriders but university football, high school football, and womens' football leagues. Other CFL stadia host professional soccer, including (in Winnipeg and Hamilton) teams in the startup Canadian Premier League.

What is MFL doing to build partnerships with the four universities in the city with football and/or soccer programs? With USPorts or the CCAA? With the Halifax Wanderers CPL club? With the NSSAF? We don't really know, but given the previously reported lack of interest by some of these entities, the answer appears to be, very little.

The events calendars for the other CFL stadia show numerous other one-off events. Regina, for example, showcased concerts by Bryan Adams, Guns N' Roses, and the Eagles last year and, with the adjacent exhibition facilities, hosts events like the Queen City Ex and agricultural shows. The stadium also has its own rental conference and trade show space.

For all his skepticism, Denman's point is valid. MFL ignores the need to address other uses for the stadium at its own peril.

Then there is the need to demonstrate, at the earliest possible time, public support for the team and the facility. The ownership group bidding for an NHL franchise for Seattle launched a season ticket drive soon after reaching agreement with Seattle to renovate the 55-year old Key Arena. (The $600 million reno is to be privately financed.) 25,000 people paid deposits within the first 75 minutes.

I fear that, not unlike the failed 2014 Commonwealth Games bid, MFL's stadium plan will ultimately founder due to lack of transparency and waning public support.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Your point is an important one, someone123. It underscores my own suspicion that Maritime Football League is rapidly watching the window close on the generation of needed public enthusiasm and support for their venture. MFL has done little to build consumer interest to date and has generally left its critics unanswered.

I fear that, not unlike the failed 2014 Commonwealth Games bid, MFL's stadium plan will ultimately founder due to lack of transparency and waning public support.

I think you are being a little unfair in your assumptions of what the POG (potential ownership group) has and hasn't done. People forget we are barely a year into this. A select few know their intentions and there are a million things to do, many dependent on something else being done.

One thing that did standout for me was the mayor confirming the pockets of the POG, that's a good start.

As for waning public support, I am amazed at the positive public support this is getting. The naysayers were so tenacious and vocal in Ottawa and the project still was completed and successful. I don't think I've seen any organized protest movement for this project yet.

In another area, everyone talks about the Ottawa model, what about the Regina model? How does a city, smaller than Halifax, build the best stadium in the league, far larger and more elaborate than Halifax will likely attempt and have that be sustainable.

I think it's just a little early and a little unfair to get on the POG for any perceived "failures" yet.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, 30,000 people are not going to walk, bike or bus to an event and that is the only mode of transportation HRM Council would support in an urban location, so that is a non-starter for any proponents.

30,000?

People can still drive to urban stadiums (to an extent) if they're designed properly with transportation options. Lansdowne, as an example, has underground parking....it's only enough for a few thousand but is utilized. I've previously posted transportation figures for Lansdowne on this forum that gives a breakdown of how people travel to the stadium for events (these are figured provided by OSEG to the City of Ottawa). You can incorporate things like park-and-ride shuttles between large-scale parking locations and the stadium. In Ottawa, these are typically done between Carleton University and Lansdowne. OCTranspo provides free bus rides to people with event tickets and provide shuttles to and from City Hall parking garage. There's different options for most users.

Originally Posted by elly63

In another area, everyone talks about the Ottawa model, what about the Regina model? How does a city, smaller than Halifax, build the best stadium in the league, far larger and more elaborate than Halifax will likely attempt and have that be sustainable.

Regina has decades of history hosting a professional sports team in a large-scale stadium. Supporting and building Mosaic was easy given the proven track record and local clout of the Riders. Halifax has no such history and no track record to build off of comparatively.

City size has only a portion of the role to play in the size and complexity of a stadium.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I'll wager you do not know what 'General Revenue' means and why McNeil used the two words.

I have no idea what "General Revenue" means. Could you explain?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

People can still drive to urban stadiums (to an extent) if they're designed properly with transportation options. Lansdowne, as an example, has underground parking....it's only enough for a few thousand but is utilized. I've previously posted transportation figures for Lansdowne on this forum that gives a breakdown of how people travel to the stadium for events (these are figured provided by OSEG to the City of Ottawa). You can incorporate things like park-and-ride shuttles between large-scale parking locations and the stadium. In Ottawa, these are typically done between Carleton University and Lansdowne. OCTranspo provides free bus rides to people with event tickets and provide shuttles to and from City Hall parking garage. There's different options for most users.

You miss my point. HRM Council would not support most of those things because they are in a war against the private vehicle. They likely would not provide even bus parking much less vehicle parking if it was in an urban setting. If Halifax Transit was the only option to get to and from the stadium you might as well build it out in the boonies on the 102 somewhere because that alone would keep many people from attending.