French language-related stuff

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Then perhaps the creation of Chiac is the process of francophones finally meeting anglophones halfway?

It should be noted that anglophones are not forcing southern Acadians to incorporate English into their dialect. These Acadians are accepting the English terminology and sentence structures on their own accord. D'accord?

I understand this makes them linguistic traitors, to some francophones.

I don't see these people as traitors, or even as victims of demolinguistics (although this might be closer to the reality).

What I see though is the direction Chiac takes Acadians - it takes them to a future where their main language is standard English. No way around it really.

Whether this is dramatic or not is a matter of debate. Various individuals and even larger groups have switched languages over time. It's not really that big a deal but people should not be mistaken that they are on highway A when they are actually on highway B.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Why can't you accept both? Most francophones I know who speak Chiac can also speak the northern dialect of which you're so proud.

My observation has been that there are many Chiac speakers who have difficulties in taking their French to another level to make themselves understood to French speakers from other parts of Canada or other parts of the world. The transition seems to be much easier for speakers of northern NB Acadian French or Brayons.

Similarly a lot of Franco-Ontarians have trouble making themselves understood outside of their community or understanding say a simple Radio-Canada newscast.

This is also true of Québécois who speak mostly joual, although this group is an endangered species.

There are real repercussions in speaking mostly a patois version of a standard language, especially in the usefulness you can get out of that language.

In turn, this can lead to the outright death of the said language in a given area, because it doesn't have any practical application outside of joking around with the boys around the kitchen table.

No one writes up hospital records or plans for buildings in Chiac. If these things are not going to be in reasonably standard French in SE NB, they are going to be in English. You can be sure of that.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What I see though is the direction Chiac takes Acadians - it takes them to a future where their main language is standard English. No way around it really.

Whether this is dramatic or not is a matter of debate. Various individuals and even larger groups have switched languages over time. It's not really that big a deal but people should not be mistaken that they are on highway A when they are actually on highway B.

Pretty much my thoughts on all of this.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Biggest news story here:

People in France hate all forms of Canadian French and can't understand our phrasing and accents for the most part.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Biggest news story here:

People in France hate all forms of Canadian French and can't understand our phrasing and accents for the most part.

And what is this based on?

Interesting your should refer to ''OUR phrasing and accents'' - are you a native French-speaking Canadian? If not, why do you feel qualified to speak on our behalf?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And what is this based on?

Interesting your should refer to ''OUR phrasing and accents'' - are you a native French-speaking Canadian? If not, why do you feel qualified to speak on our behalf?

Obviously not everyone. If I were to make a judgement call, some even bring it up before I even ask if they know about Quebec.

Its sort of like Latin American spanish with Spain. I find most Latin American Spanish actually easier to understand and better to Spain's Espanol (everybody bickers and looks down on the other ones, or certain ones). I'm not saying I view it as worse, I've just seen the discrimination in action time and time again. I also find it ignorant that many of us with some relatives in the province of Quebec ignore the multi-cultural ancestry of everybody, mainly Irish and French, but with common language. Also, any french relatives were not really the best friends of france in the colonie

I lived in Quebec for over 5 years, have some Quebecois ancestry and get made fun of when my french pronounce things or use sayings that aren't common in France. Vous form? Didn't even know it existed before my first time living to France (hyperbole). I'd say I've met a representative sample size for the population that espouses these negative beliefs.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Biggest news story here:

People in France hate all forms of Canadian French and can't understand our phrasing and accents for the most part.

Haha, in my experience this is not wrong. I traveled to France a few years ago and whenever I tried to start a converasation in French, almost universally the response was "(sigh...) you must be from Canada, non? Maybe we try this in English?" Not in a particularly unfriendly way, but certainly an exasperated/confused one.

[cormiermax]

The French catch on pretty quick that you're Canadian. Its usually just easier to switch over to a Parisian accent when over there.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

The French catch on pretty quick that you're Canadian. Its usually just easier to switch over to a Parisian accent when over there.

How many Canadians can actually do this? I've heard from quite a few of my friends of the difficulties they've had in going to school in France and being looked down upon because their French is not the same as France's. It's the same when an Acadiens travel to Quebec or vice-versa.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How many Canadians can actually do this? I've heard from quite a few of my friends of the difficulties they've had in going to school in France and being looked down upon because their French is not the same as France's. It's the same when an Acadiens travel to Quebec or vice-versa.

I guess it all depends on a persons ability to mimic accents. Easier for some harder for others.

[Acajack]

There is a certain rapport that exists between France and French-speaking Canada (and some Acadians are part of this) that most English-speaking Canadians aren't aware of. (And are not a part of either.) I am not blaming them for not being aware, but unless you are in the know for such things, any comments on the topic sound like you are talking out of your hat.

Case in point. An obvious example. Someone who is not particularly educated. It doesn't look like she is having any trouble being understood. Plus she is not even putting on a fake Parisian accent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSSjc70O6vY

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Haha, in my experience this is not wrong. I traveled to France a few years ago and whenever I tried to start a converasation in French, almost universally the response was "(sigh...) you must be from Canada, non? Maybe we try this in English?" Not in a particularly unfriendly way, but certainly an exasperated/confused one.

I think you and others are mistaking the French of English-speaking Canadians who are bilingual to varying degrees, and that of native French speakers who are Canadian. There is a huge difference between the two.

I have been to France numerous times and have never had people ask me to switch to English. The vast majority of people I know have never had these legendary communication problems either.

NOW... there are some French-speaking Canadians (native speakers) who do run into these communication problems in France.

Bringing the discussion full circle - most of these would precisely be speakers of Chiac, and also of certain forms of Franco-Ontarian.

Which is exactly why I think Chiac is a dead end.

And that I don't believe people here when they say that most Chiac speakers can effortlessly make the switch to a more standard form of French if they have to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How many Canadians can actually do this? I've heard from quite a few of my friends of the difficulties they've had in going to school in France and being looked down upon because their French is not the same as France's. It's the same when an Acadiens travel to Quebec or vice-versa.

It is probably because their French is not up to snuff to begin with. I have scores of Acadian relatives in all three Maritime provinces. I have seen a lot of them in action in Quebec and many have travelled to Europe and have not reported any communication problems.

The only ones that have had problems are those for whom the only variety of French they truly master is either Chiac or southwestern Nova Scotian colloquial Acadian and who can't break out of that.

In their case, their main official language is usually English to be quite honest. That's the language they use for work, it's the side of the cereal box they read and what they use to fill out government and other forms. The French they speak is simply a folkloric patois they use for certain specific aspects of their personal lives.

[someone123]

The unintelligible dialect thing has always bugged me because I hear it in English Canada (it's folk knowledge here in Vancouver) a lot and it is not my experience at all. I've had plenty of normal conversations with French people (also involving family members with various French Canadian accents). In Quebec there tends to be somewhat of a blend of Canadian and French media and some cross-pollination. The relationship is similar to English Canada and the UK.

Few people in Toronto would appreciate being talked down to as if they speak fake English, and it would probably take a minute for an argument like that to even register with them. As far as Quebec is concerned the story is mostly part anachronism and part of a legacy of old attempts to label French Canadian culture as illegitimate, thereby excusing discrimination and assimilation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I also find it ignorant that many of us with some relatives in the province of Quebec ignore the multi-cultural ancestry of everybody, mainly Irish and French, but with common language. .

Not sure what you mean by this. Francophones who are of Irish descent in Quebec are considered totally Québécois by everyone.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I lived in Quebec for over 5 years, have some Quebecois ancestry and get made fun of when my french pronounce things or use sayings that aren't common in France. Vous form? Didn't even know it existed before my first time living to France (hyperbole). I'd say I've met a representative sample size for the population that espouses these negative beliefs.

I know you said hyperbole but seriously, native French-speaking Canadians learn the vous (vs. tu) form around the time they are five years old.

Once again, a lot of this seems to come from being a native speaker vs. a non-native speaker.

[brannelford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And what is this based on?

Interesting your should refer to ''OUR phrasing and accents'' - are you a native French-speaking Canadian? If not, why do you feel qualified to speak on our behalf?

For what it's worth, back in the 1990's I was travelling in France with this girl I knew who was originally from Sept-Iles, but had moved to Toronto, where we met.

So, here we are in the north of France, and out of the two of us, the anglophone (me) and the francophone from Sept-Iles, guess which one of us was asked by the locals to speak English in order to be understood better? Yep, Sarah from Sept-Iles... she was so pissed off, and I couldn't stop laughing at that one!

But yeah, I guess to be honest, I think it was also a little bit because my anglophone French was being spoken in such a slow, somewhat halting and deliberate fashion, that it allowed the locals a chance to adjust for my accent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by brannelford

For what it's worth, back in the 1990's I was travelling in France with this girl I knew who was originally from Sept-Iles, but had moved to Toronto, where we met.

So, here we are in the north of France, and out of the two of us, the anglophone (me) and the francophone from Sept-Iles, guess which one of us was asked by the locals to speak English in order to be understood better? Yep, Sarah from Sept-Iles... she was so pissed off, and I couldn't stop laughing at that one!

But yeah, I guess to be honest, I think it was also a little bit because my anglophone French was being spoken in such a slow, somewhat halting and deliberate fashion, that it allowed the locals a chance to adjust for my accent.

Out of curiosity, how long had your friend Sarah lived in Toronto?

[W.Sobchak]

After living with Acadians in Moncton, and Brayons in Saint John, the one fact shared between the two is they're loath of Québécois. This may just have been the groups I was around, but they both hated their remembering cousins. They were quite adamant that most stereotypical Québécois cultural pieces were stolen from them. I don't know if that is true, but they were very vehement about this fact/or opinion.


I also have to admit that I find Acadian French to be much more melodic and pleasant to hear... Especially from a female, while Brayon almost made me think of a jig.

Two cents from an Anglo

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by W.Sobchak

After living with Acadians in Moncton, and Brayons in Saint John, the one fact shared between the two is they're loath of Québécois. This may just have been the groups I was around, but they both hated their remembering cousins. They were quite adamant that most stereotypical Québécois cultural pieces were stolen from them. I don't know if that is true, but they were very vehement about this fact/or opinion.


I also have to admit that I find Acadian French to be much more melodic and pleasant to hear... Especially from a female, while Brayon almost made me think of a jig.

Two cents from an Anglo

There are tensions for sure between Québécois and other Canadian francophones. This mostly comes from the separatist movement and the related impression that francophones outside Quebec are ''dead ducks'' doomed to be assimilated. (Which is sort of true for some of them to be quite honest - but not all.)

The sentiments you heard do exist, but not everyone thinks that way. Keep in mind that some self-selection takes place - NB francophones who opt to go live in a very anglo place like Saint John or even Toronto or Regina probably do not have the same view of Québécois as those who choose to move to Montreal, Quebec City or Gatineau, where there are tons of NB francophones. Quebec in general is a top out of province migration destination for NB francophones. Of course, not all Acadians who live in Montreal necessarily have a high esteem of Québécois, and not all Acadians in Saint John, Halifax or Toronto are anti-Québécois. But there can be a correlation.

Also, as for most of Quebec's culture being Acadian in origin and "stolen" from them, this is completely false. I say that as an NB-born Acadian BTW.