Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[GenWhy?]

We have until 2032 to be required to make repairs. No rush.

[Tysonbrown]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

We have until 2032 to be required to make repairs. No rush.

Tear them down now! They were a crime to begin with. Now we know better. They represent black oppression.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tysonbrown

Tear them down now! They were a crime to begin with. Now we know better. They represent black oppression.

This is kind of the worst reason to do anything. Perhaps a crime was committed, but cutting off your nose to spite your face accomplishes nothing. Tearing down the viaducts isn't going to un-oppress the 1970s black community of Hogan's Alley. That ship has sailed and we should be building and supporting communities now and into the future, not dwelling on the past.

That being said, tear them down. We will never build the freeway to provide the vehicles that the viaducts were designed to hold; They're just a huge waste of space at this point.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Well Concord can't have the Plaza of Nations (that's CMP property, currently under development since Concord lost the suit), and even the new Council isn't ready to scrap the demolition plan, so it's just them being stubborn at this point.

And again, there's Holborn at Little Mountain. It's mostly developers finding it more lucrative to sit on the property until land value goes up and then develop.

Dunno much about Little Mountain, so I'm ignoring that.

I pointed out 2 other reasons (other than wanting the parkland) that Concord would be delaying.
Like having to rely on Vancouver to build the new road system quickly to avoid taking even more losses than just waiting on the vacant land as is. (needing to take loans to pay off the CACs long before construction even starts and all).


Technically, PavCo and Aquilini have also not started their projects either (Aquili never built Towers 3+).


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Orange lots are areas that the new Hogan's Alley can expand into in later phases (they were originally part of Hogan's Alley.)
They also offer a potential extra source of CACs (no indication anyone will do this, though.)

Black is current Concord Lands allowed to be developed under NEFC.

The areas in Red are the areas I'm talking about Concord wanting- the areas slated for parklands in NEFC.
Concord owns most of that land already.


Also, for the road network for this 'down-sized NEFC':
Quebec between Union and Prior gets closed (minus bikes) in this map so Prior can exit onto Pac. Blvd.

Pac. Blvd gets expanded to 6 lanes while the rest of the traffic flow remains the same (including Expo- ie. net 10 lanes pass through.) 2 lanes can be left for transit.
Maybe overkill (current road network is 7 lanes), but still. You can change it to 8, and the overall plan remains the same.

Georgia and Dunsmuir exit onto Pac. Blvd and Expo, respectively, as planned (mostly) for NEFC as-is.

[Migrant_Coconut]

We’ve been over this a few years ago – the park area is the most contaminated part of the site, and they’re going to dump the excavated contaminants from the developed half onto the park half and make that even worse; unless Concord is prepared to pay a bunch of health-related lawsuits on top of the CACs, that’s a pretty dumb reason to stall.

I believe PavCo and Aquilini 3 also depend on the Georgia Ramp, which depends on Concord, who seem content to just sit there. City Hall’s already considering asking the province for funding; we know Eby’s started intervening on the municipal level for the sake of housing, so if Concord holds the site too long, there's a non-zero chance Victoria jumps in and expropriates it, and then they lose a lot more than just the amenity money.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We’ve been over this a few years ago – the park area is the most contaminated part of the site, and they’re going to dump the excavated contaminants from the developed half onto the park half and make that even worse; unless Concord is prepared to pay a bunch of health-related lawsuits on top of the CACs, that’s a pretty dumb reason to stall.

I believe PavCo and Aquilini 3 also depend on the Georgia Ramp, which depends on Concord, who seem content to just sit there. City Hall’s already considering asking the province for funding; we know Eby’s started intervening on the municipal level for the sake of housing, so if Concord holds the site too long, there's a non-zero chance Victoria jumps in and expropriates it, and then they lose a lot more than just the amenity money.

They can dump the contaminants outside the city.

Removing the Viaducts isn't critical for infrastructure ASAP, and forcing it through just for the social housing seems like an unwise waste of money.

It's a problem during earthquakes if the viaducts fall, but alternate routes exist.

They're not going to get forced anytime soon.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Dumping outside Vancouver's in their best interests, but not anybody else’s, least of all their future residents. There’s a barrier and a pump station on that half of the site for a reason.

They’re not likely to be forced by the province, but also not likely to get their way either; what'll probably happen is that Victoria will fund the difference and then the viaducts come down regardless. Either way, Concord’s mostly just being dicks.

[Changing City]

Unless someone here has inside information on any negotiations between the City and Concord Pacific, we don't know anything about a possible deal on their NEFC plans. (Anybody who actually knows what's going on probably won't be sharing it here, either). Concord submitted a rezoning in 2017, then put it on hold and effectively withdrew it.

More recently they've negotiated for several years on the six non-market sites that aren't part of NEFC, but elsewhere in False Creek North. That resulted in a cash payment of $110 million "that could be used or allocated to fund the new street network planned for Northeast False Creek". There's also already a CAC from the developers of the Plaza of Nations, and an offer from the Province to consider funding the new roads.

No doubt there will be a report to Council with an update on the situation, but if negotiations are already happening with Concord over their development (which will be expected to have more non-market housing) that would be 'in camera' and not reported until a deal has been agreed, just as happened with the other six sites.

Aquilini's third tower is approved - they could build it whenever they choose, (although it could be waiting on the Georgia pedestrian link). There's no additional CAC associated with it. Pavco's tower could be built - it's rental, and there's no CAC, so they're not relevant either. As you note, there's no intention of extending development further east into Strathcona, (there are two new houses being built on the blocks you coloured orange). There's also no CAC cash anticipated from the one block that in intended to be a Land Trust in association with the Hogan's Alley Society, that would have non-market housing as its contribution to public benefits.

The park can't be changed (at least not made smaller), or developed on, as it has extremely toxic soils which are best left undisturbed, just as Andy Livingstone and David Lam Parks were built on contaminated sites. It's intended that other toxic soil associated with development should also be located there, before it's capped and the park developed. There's a legal agreement with the Province that says it has to happen that way, and there's no way it would be changed.

Your map is inaccurate, in that the City of Vancouver own both parcels of land east of Carrall and north of Pacific.

If there's an earthquake, the viaduct route isn't the problem, as you note, there are alternatives. However, the viaduct would probably fall on top of SkyTrain (which itself is to a higher seismic standard) and that's a more serious liability.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Unless someone here has inside information on any negotiations between the City and Concord Pacific, we don't know anything about a possible deal on their NEFC plans. (Anybody who actually knows what's going on probably won't be sharing it here, either). Concord submitted a rezoning in 2017, then put it on hold and effectively withdrew it.

More recently they've negotiated for several years on the six non-market sites that aren't part of NEFC, but elsewhere in False Creek North. That resulted in a cash payment of $110 million "that could be used or allocated to fund the new street network planned for Northeast False Creek". There's also already a CAC from the developers of the Plaza of Nations, and an offer from the Province to consider funding the new roads.

No doubt there will be a report to Council with an update on the situation, but if negotiations are already happening with Concord over their development (which will be expected to have more non-market housing) that would be 'in camera' and not reported until a deal has been agreed, just as happened with the other six sites.

Aquilini's third tower is approved - they could build it whenever they choose, (although it could be waiting on the Georgia pedestrian link). There's no additional CAC associated with it. Pavco's tower could be built - it's rental, and there's no CAC, so they're not relevant either. As you note, there's no intention of extending development further east into Strathcona, (there are two new houses being built on the blocks you coloured orange). There's also no CAC cash anticipated from the one block that in intended to be a Land Trust in association with the Hogan's Alley Society, that would have non-market housing as its contribution to public benefits.

The park can't be changed (at least not made smaller), or developed on, as it has extremely toxic soils which are best left undisturbed, just as Andy Livingstone and David Lam Parks were built on contaminated sites. It's intended that other toxic soil associated with development should also be located there, before it's capped and the park developed. There's a legal agreement with the Province that says it has to happen that way, and there's no way it would be changed.

Your map is inaccurate, in that the City of Vancouver own both parcels of land east of Carrall and north of Pacific.

If there's an earthquake, the viaduct route isn't the problem, as you note, there are alternatives. However, the viaduct would probably fall on top of SkyTrain (which itself is to a higher seismic standard) and that's a more serious liability.

Then I guess PavCo could hand over their section of the lands Concord if the BC government wanted to subsidize the viaduct removal then.

Same with the Murrin Substation (though this is problematic and difficult (eg. lack of parking availability), you'd want to eventually put the substation underground in some form).
Maybe expand the planned West End Substation to provide for the temporary lost capacity during construction.
That's even less likely to happen than a PavCo handover, though.

That lot (and the Chinatown Parkade) would be good places for a NEFC phase 2, though (along with the eastern 'future Hogan's Alley Expansion').

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https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/librar...916.pdf#page20
Shows the toxic site is actually on the southwest Concord lot, not the east one.

Meaning they're already dumping waste from one lot to another.

The new map (with more stuff added and a slight redrawing of the Prior St. connector to make it more land-efficient)




There's a light blue lot added indicating where the toxic soil would be dumped instead of at the new park.
This is supposedly 6-10m of toxic soil, or about a condo parking garage's worth, across approximately that area.
That side of Creekside Park isn't as used anyways, and would be redeveloped under the current plans.

Also, keeping Pac. Blvd one-way (aside from the extra space for the 2 lanes of streetcar under a 10-lane option) means that the PavCo lot increases in size from approx. 5500m2 to 8000m2 of land. You could potentially put a pretty big tower there (or even plural- towers) in place of the current plans.

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The map- I know it's not 100% accurate.

I thought there was some kind of deal that Concord was being handed over that parcel after the viaducts went down, but now that I'm trying to find the source for that, I can't find anything...

It would be very strange for the CoV to keep it other than maybe for a single tower for the social housing proposed on that lot.



TBF, the demonstration track section may also go down during an earthquake, since it's designed differently (ie. worse) vs the rest of the Expo Line as well.

Also, TransLink should probably chip in if they're that concerned about viaduct debris falling on the tracks.
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Also, BTW, that document I linked to earlier (and other old documents about Concord Pac. Place) imply Concord was also given the lands between Expo and Pender St. (ie. International Village and Andy Livingstone Park.)

What happened to that? Did Concord ever actually own them, or did they sell it like Plaza of Nations?


It'd be especially weird then that Concord never/isn't bought/buying those lots.
Both Henderson Mall and International Village are underused lots that would benefit a ton from redevelopment- probably more worth it than the insane price they paid for St. Paul's (even accounting for its iffy location.)

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fredinno

...
Also, BTW, that document I linked to earlier (and other old documents about Concord Pac. Place) imply Concord was also given the lands between Expo and Pender St. (ie. International Village and Andy Livingstone Park.)

What happened to that? Did Concord ever actually own them, or did they sell it like Plaza of Nations?

It'd be especially weird then that Concord never/isn't bought/buying those lots.
Both Henderson Mall and International Village are underused lots that would benefit a ton from redevelopment- probably more worth it than the insane price they paid for St. Paul's (even accounting for its iffy location.)

Yup - Concord sold those lands to Henderson very early after the Expo Lands deal.
Some will remember that Henderson was so enthusiastic at developing the lands that it excavated
all 4 blocks in advance of construction, only to have 3 of them sit idle and fill with water becoming lakes.
They were later temporarily filled in and re-excavated when development occurred.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yup - Concord sold those lands to Henderson very early after the Expo Lands deal.
Some will remember that Henderson was so enthusiastic at developing the lands that it excavated
all 4 blocks in advance of construction, only to have 3 of them sit idle and fill with water becoming lakes.
They were later temporarily filled in and re-excavated when development occurred.

Ah- thanks.


Yikes.



Apparently, the management did change after they took down the listing... and their website hasn't been updated since 2020.
I went to their malls recently, and they're basically doing the bare minimum to make sure their half-empty malls don't completely die.

A shame.
One can only imagine how well they're maintaining their condos.

The only surprising part is that Concord didn't try to claw the lands back.
You could probably double the number of towers with modern Vancouver DT tower spacing vs what it is now.
Henderson Mall proper (Coquitlam) has potential too.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yup - Concord sold those lands to Henderson very early after the Expo Lands deal.
Some will remember that Henderson was so enthusiastic at developing the lands that it excavated
all 4 blocks in advance of construction, only to have 3 of them sit idle and fill with water becoming lakes.
They were later temporarily filled in and re-excavated when development occurred.

Firenze, which was finally built between 2005 and 2007, was still a lake in 2004, and had been for at least 3 years. I guess that one was delayed a second time? There were signs on the chainlink fence warning of 'deep excavation', but the ducks didn't seem to care.

[FarmerHaight]

The city of Vancouver and developer Concord Pacific have finally formalized a deal to transfer three Concord-owned sites to the city for nonmarket housing. While the deal on affordable housing is welcome, whether it’s a step closer to the long-anticipated development of a new waterfront neighbourhood on the north side of False Creek is a question that lingers.

“We’re raring to go and get to Northeast False Creek, and our final piece of the Expo lands is to get it rezoned and get it under construction,” said Matt Meehan, senior vice-president planning for Concord Pacific Development Corp.

There is one major sticking point, which is the removal of the Georgia and Dunsmuir Street viaducts. The city approved the Northeast False Creek plan in 2018, estimating the cost of the viaduct removal and construction of a new road system at $438-million. That cost is expected to have increased over the last six years.

To fund the project, the city had been counting on significant community amenity contributions from developers who own land in the area. Developers pay CACs when they apply for rezonings, and they are typically used for parks, daycares and other public facilities.

The Northeast False Creek plan includes a sea of highrises, mostly condos, as well as some market rental and nonmarket housing. Construction delays amid a housing crisis, in addition to the failure to deliver promised park land, have raised the ire of local residents.

It’s still unclear when construction of the new neighbourhood and road network will begin. The city’s plan depends on sales or leases of city lands no longer needed for the viaducts, and developer contributions in the form of cash and land. But in 2018, the market was hot compared to today’s market and condos aren’t selling like they used to.

Concord said its development plans now hinge on the removal of the viaducts. The NEFC plan can’t go ahead without them coming down. Meanwhile, the city is waiting for more funding.

“We’re kind of in a predicament where we can’t really go ahead with our plans until the viaducts are actually in the process of coming down,” said Mr. Meehan. He points out that the city has already received an infusion of funding, including $110-million from his company and a substantial amount from the rezoning of Plaza of Nations in 2018, which resulted in a major boost in density for that developer, Canadian Metropolitan Properties.

“Between the $110-million from Concord’s rezoning and the $100-million from the Plaza of Nations rezoning, the city has made a giant step toward the cost of the removal of the viaducts,” said Mr. Meehan. “With the [Lions Gate and Granville] bridges having been recently seismically upgraded, we understand there is urgency in the demolition of the viaducts, as well as in planning for the area. “The timeline for development depends not only on viaduct removal, but also on planning co-operation, financing, and market conditions. We can’t speak for all the other NEFC landowners, but we are ready to move ahead.”

Concord Pacific and Canadian Metropolitan Properties are landowners of the key waterfront sites. Aquilini Development, crown corporation PavCo (BC Place) and the city of Vancouver are also landowners in the area.

Canadian Metropolitan’s Plaza of Nations site, valued a couple of years ago at $800-million, doesn’t need the viaduct removal to begin construction of its 10-acre master-planned community, says James Cheng, architect for the rezoning application.

“However, as a Vancouverite, I think the removal of the viaducts is a good thing for the city as the viaducts cut the city into east and west,” said Mr. Cheng. “With their removal, it will be more of a seamless transition uniting two neighbourhoods.

“The other important aspect of removing the viaducts is to provide a proper termination to Georgia Street, which is one of the two ceremonial streets of Vancouver – the other is Burrard. Currently, there is no end to Georgia as it just turned into a freeway. With the viaducts gone, it will dip down and connect to Pacific Boulevard, providing a much-needed pedestrian and vehicular connection.”

The city could not give a timeline for the viaducts project, which staff have said would take a couple of years once finally under way. The city said that it still needs funding from surrounding development sites to complete the two-phase work. Once funding is secured, the city will finalize the design and prepare an updated cost estimate for the project.

“Funding from the redevelopment of sites within the Plan area, secured through rezoning, is needed to contribute to the cost of removing the viaducts and implementing the new street network,” the city responded in an e-mail. “In addition, the city requires some privately-owned land to deliver the replacement street network. This land is intended to be secured through the rezoning processes for the development sites in the area.

“Once sufficient funding is secured through the rezoning processes (and other sources as necessary), the viaducts can be removed, and Concord can proceed with redevelopment of their site in tandem with the implementation of the new street network.”

The city spokesperson conceded that “these projects have not progressed as quickly as envisaged when the [Northeast False Creek] plan was adopted in 2018.”

However, the city and park board “remain committed to realizing the plan,” said the statement.

The city’s announcement about nonmarket housing last week was a small sign of progress. They had officially given up the option to purchase three of the six Concord sites originally designated for nonmarket housing, in exchange for $121-million from the developer and other benefits. Of that amount, the city said $110-million is earmarked to go toward the street network and viaduct removal. The remaining $11-million represents what the city would have had to pay the developer if it had optioned its right to purchase the three sites for nonmarket housing. Concord waived the amount.

Instead of developing all six sites, as planned, the city will increase the density and deliver 670 units at 990 Beatty St., 1050 Expo Blvd. and 450 Pacific Blvd. The biggest projects are the 28 and 29 storey towers on Beatty Street and Expo Boulevard, respectively. And Concord will be allowed to develop condominiums on the other three sites, at 1502 Granville St., 431 Beach Cres. and 900 Pacific Blvd.

The deal goes back to the late eighties, shortly after Concord Pacific purchased the Expo Lands and the city came up with a goal for 20 per cent of the site for affordable housing. Several of the sites have since been converted to market condo development.

The lack of senior government funding has made the city’s delivery of nonmarket housing a challenge.

Former city of Burnaby senior planner Robert Renger said he believed Concord got the better deal in this recent land transfer. If the city had exercised its options for all six sites, they could have delivered even more nonmarket housing, said Mr. Renger. He also notes that the money Concord paid to the city that will go toward the viaduct removal benefits the developer as much as the city.

“The city and province could have – and should have – gone ahead with the acquisition and development of these three sites just as they are doing, without giving up the other three nonmarket sites to Concord for market development.

“Shortage of affordable housing is at crisis levels,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense to give up nonmarket housing sites at this time, just to raise money for viaduct removal.”

Link

[jollyburger]

I wonder if they'll relax the view cones even further to raise more CAC payments? They mentioned a signature tower at ~40 storeys/425 feet at the new Georgia/Pacific Blvd intersection.

From the article "Rendering of Concord Pacific's plans for the old Expo lands." Seems closer to 45+ storeys in these renderings(?)

[logan5]

I know there's a plan in place, but is there some law from preventing the City from maximizing height and density on the lands the viaducts sit on? The City could easily make the land worth well over a billion dollars with the right density allowances.