Canadian transit ridership per capita

[miketoronto]

That is true to. But service is also key. There are areas of suburban Toronto that are nothing but single family homes, yet there are buses going by every 2-10 minutes and running 24 hours at that. In suburban Metro NYC it would be a bus every hour if you are lucky and the bus stops at 7PM.
Outside of the City of NYC, there is just not a transit culture like you see in suburban Montreal or Toronto. It is very normal for teens for example to take the bus to the mall, or to a part-time job, etc. In suburban NYC less so, because most people can't rely on transit except to go into Manhattan.

Suffolk County Transit does not even run on Sunday's. That is not very good that a large area of the nations largest metro area has no Sunday transit service.

[Gordo]

Yes, but a single family home is not a single family home is not a single family home. A lot depends on the size of the lots, the spacing and connectivity of streets, etc. In general, Canadians never embraced the anti-transit neighborhoods in the same way that Americans did and continue to do so. Adding transit to an area that is simply not conducive to transit won't help much. Long Island, for example, has good rail service to the central city, but putting service in place for other uses is tough because of the neighborhood designs (and generally a waste of scarce transit dollars - use the money where it will bring the biggest bang for the buck).

[miketoronto]

That is true about the housing design.
But there are plenty areas of Long Island that are dense, and still have crap transit.

Would most of Long Island not be like the photo below? That pic is of my street. As you can see it is very very very suburban. Now there are other planning things outside of my street that add density. But still it is very suburban. Adn yet bus service is every 2-6 minutes during the day Mon-Fri, and every 10 min or less weeknights, and Sat-Sun. Overnight service after 2am is every 30 min. Sometimes you just have to provide service to attract people. But this shows why per capita ridership is higher in Toronto. Plus other factors. Untill the 1990's, something like 90% of Greater Toronto's office space was built either downtown or along the rapid transit subway. Toronto's planning in the 1960's-80's pushed development into TOD style way before it became trendy and normal. That is why Toronto has had such success with transit ridership not only in the inner city but in the suburbs also. The newer suburbs are another story. But the old ones that use be under Metro Gov are a North American model. I just had to do a project in school last semester on this very topic of Toronto's suburbs and now Toronto did smart growth and TOD before it was even considered. North American first.

[Gordo]

You can't tell everything from the picture, but the first thing that I notice is that you have a nice sidewalk. Many areas of Long Island do not have sidewalks. It may seem like a small thing, but it really begins to tell the story. How your street connects to others (especially a street that can support transit) is another biggie. I've got an aunt who lives less than 1000 feet from the Kings Park LIRR station - as the crow flies. However, since she lives at the end of a cul-de-sac that connects to a road that curves all over the place, it's well over a mile walk to the station - all on roads without sidewalks.

The area simply isn't built for transit - even if she had more transit options, I'm certain that she wouldn't use them because it would just be weird to have transit in such a transit-unfriendly place. Keep in mind - my aunt works in Manhattan and uses car + LIRR + subway to get to work four days a week, so it's not like she is unfamiliar with transit.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I don't know why people are so defensive, etc because transit service in the suburban parts of Metro NYC is not really that good.

Nobody claimed that "transit service in the suburban parts of Metro NYC is really that good". Nobody here thinks that.

YOU are the one claiming that 1. Transit service in suburban Toronto is extremely good; and 2. Transit ridership in Toronto is higher on a per capita basis. Neither of these claims is backed by any numbers.

Mississuagua was compared to Nassau County, which makes as much sense as someone comparing transit ridership in Oakville, ON and Jersey City, NJ.

Originally Posted by miketoronto

From the City of Toronto
"Transit Toronto’s public transit system is the second largest in North America and has the highest per capita ridership rate on the continent."
http://www.toronto.ca/invest-in-toro...r_overview.htm

Hilarious. At least you tried to find something that backed up your claims, but this is obviously false.

Mexico City has only 25% of households with cars, and carries about 10 million bus riders and 5 million Metro riders daily. The VAST majority of the bus riders are on the city's public buses.

You are now claiming that Toronto has higher ridership and market share than Mexico City? What about market share in Guadalajara, Monterrey, and basically every city in Mexico?

[hammersklavier]

That, Gordo, is part of the reason why American transit ridership is so low. If you have to walk over a mile to get to a station that's basically on the other side of your backyard because the streets were laid out so poorly then it's gonna kill your transit ridership.

[alexjon]

And this is why Toronto is the most important city in North America.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

That is not very good that a large area of the nations largest metro area has no Sunday transit service.

Again, untrue. The majority of Suffolk County public transit ridership is on the LIRR, which runs 24/7.

Suffolk County Transit does not serve all of Suffolk County. The towns provide their own service, especially the buses to the LIRR, such as the HART buses in Huntington.

And nobody here would claim that Suffolk County, on the outer fringes of the metropolitan area, has good bus service.

Compared to more urban areas, it sucks. But exurban Toronto has only slightly less crappy service, and we are talking about the metropolitan area overall.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Toronto did smart growth and TOD before it was even considered. North American first.

T.O. was the first North American city to have a streetcar? Wow, Ryerson's planning program doesn't fuck around, they teach everything! All they need is a Reality 101 course...

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Riise

T.O. was the first North American city to have a streetcar? Wow, Ryerson's planning program doesn't fuck around, they teach everything! All they need is a Reality 101 course...

If you don't like the facts fine. We are not talking about streetcars. We are talking about modern urban planning from the 50's. It may not be perfect, but Toronto started TOD and limiting suburban growth way before it became trendy or the norm. That is why so many high-rises are in the suburbs. It was part of the plan to limit the amount of land needed to house people.
Toronto was the Portland of the day.

[Justin10000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Compared to more urban areas, it sucks. But exurban Toronto has only slightly less crappy service, and we are talking about the metropolitan area overall.

That is debatable. Many transit agencies in the GTA do have service that runs up until 12:00. on many routes. I am not defending Mike, but I do live in the Toronto area, and the service is tolerable.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If you don't like the facts fine... It may not be perfect, but Toronto started TOD and limiting suburban growth way before it became trendy or the norm.

I'm not doubting the facts but rather the person presenting the facts. Your claims about T.O. being the trailblazer seem dubious to me, that's all.

[tdawg]

Toronto and New York shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. Look at Toronto's tiny subway network.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Riise

I'm not doubting the facts but rather the person presenting the facts. Your claims about T.O. being the trailblazer seem dubious to me, that's all.

Well go stand all the way out at Yonge Street and Davis Drive ont eh extreme edge of the Metropolitan area, and you will see that you only have wait 15 minutes or less for a bus.

The same can not be said for the edges of Metropolitan NYC. It is not perfect, but when it comes to transit Toronto does it well by North American standards across the entire metro area.
And that is why the per capita ridership is higher. I am just trying to show why our usage is higher thats all.

[fflint]

Has Mike still failed to provide any sufficient support backing his repeated claims? Some day, we'll all shut him down until he debates in good faith. Might this be that day?

[alexjon]

Paul is still around, so I don't know why boosters like Mike and J.Will can't stick around. Then again, most Paul posts aren't about how San Antonio is better in some regard than X city.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Doady posted stats, which show that NYC is behind Montreal and ahead of Toronto.

Nobody has posted stats that show NYC has lower transit share than Toronto (region wide). It's just (miketoronto) making this claim.

Originally Posted by fflint

Has Mike still failed to provide any sufficient support backing his repeated claims? Some day, we'll all shut him down until he debates in good faith. Might this be that day?

Unless Mike can provide actual numbers from a reasonably objective source (not a vague comment from a Toronto-based website), I think we can officially put the claim that Toronto beats New York to bed.

Of course, that's nothing to be ashamed of. As mike himself says:

Originally Posted by mike

Its nothing bad, its just the stats.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by fflint

Has Mike still failed to provide any sufficient support backing his repeated claims? Some day, we'll all shut him down until he debates in good faith. Might this be that day?

fflint, you can go on the internet real quick and pull up per capita ridership numbers, and Toronto is always at the top, sometimes switching the spot with Montreal.

It is not some hiddel agenda by Canada to make NYC second place or third. But the stats are out there. I have been a little busy to go search out all the reports now. But it is out there.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

you can go on the internet real quick and pull up per capita ridership numbers

If it's so easy, please show us.

This is it, Mike. Game time. Put up or shut up.

Can you put up? If so, do it. If not, prepare to accept that no one on the forum will accept this claim again.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by alexjon

Paul is still around, so I don't know why boosters like Mike and J.Will can't stick around. Then again, most Paul posts aren't about how San Antonio is better in some regard than X city.

And I see no reason why boosters like alexjon shouldn't be able to stick around. His off-topic trolling is good for a laugh if nothing else. USA! USA! USA!

Anyways, mike was right initially. New York has higher per capita ridershp in the city limits. Toronto has higher per capita ridership in the suburbs.


"Hilarious. At least you tried to find something that backed up your claims, but this is obviously false.

Mexico City has only 25% of households with cars, and carries about 10 million bus riders and 5 million Metro riders daily. The VAST majority of the bus riders are on the city's public buses.

You are now claiming that Toronto has higher ridership and market share than Mexico City? What about market share in Guadalajara, Monterrey, and basically every city in Mexico?"


In Canada, the term "North America" almost always refers only to the United States and Canada. The same way "Long Island" isn't used to refer to Queens and Brooklyn, and "The South" isn't used to refer to Arizona, New Mexico, or Southern California even though they're in the Southern half of the country.

As for Doady's numbers, had he used NY's CSA number in the calculations (and I don't know why he didn't), it wouldn't even be close.