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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2016, 3:20 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Other ideas would have better emphasized areas within the Greenbelt but the Transitway conversion monster forced us to trash all or almost all the within Greenbelt plans.
To the extent that there ever were any such plans. Most of the half-baked exploratory studies were axed by the O'Brien council and have not been resumed. There is apparently some kind of bullshit study of Montreal Road in process, but no east end resident I've dealt with knows anything about it. It will invariably report back that bus lanes are not feasible, and the city will not spend one dime on TPM signalling on that axis, or Bank, or any other downtown trunk as long as there are suburbanites along Carling or Baseline who need to be made happier first.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2016, 3:22 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Buggys View Post
You can also voice this concern to the Stage 2 LRT planning folks: http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public...ctivity-public
Where it will promptly be ignored: the train has left the station (so to speak). There will be no new stations on the eastern line further west than the far-eastern Montreal Road one.
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2016, 8:40 PM
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Where it will promptly be ignored: the train has left the station (so to speak). There will be no new stations on the eastern line further west than the far-eastern Montreal Road one.
Other than at Jasmine Crescent, where else would a suitable station be located? A lot of the problem relates to the location of the Confederation Line, which can never be resolved.
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2016, 2:06 AM
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Other than at Jasmine Crescent, where else would a suitable station be located? A lot of the problem relates to the location of the Confederation Line, which can never be resolved.
We haven't extended the Confederation Line to Kanata, so that could be resolved. I created a Google My Map here of some ideas I have for alternate routes to Kanata that follow existing right of ways. The northern route particularly isn't optimal, and but they are worth considering.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2016, 5:08 PM
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The designers did include protections for a future station at Jasmine (I believe the first such instance of this being built in the LRT system) so it could be built in the future.

Given that the area around Jasmine is so low-value right now, the potential for LRT-induced gentrification is very high; so perhaps a land value capture deal could be made to fund the Jasmine station.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2016, 5:51 PM
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We haven't extended the Confederation Line to Kanata, so that could be resolved. I created a Google My Map here of some ideas I have for alternate routes to Kanata that follow existing right of ways. The northern route particularly isn't optimal, and but they are worth considering.
Given that DND will start moving in to the old Nortel buildings this November, the Northern route might be more attractive to OCTranspo (just as Tunney's Station was a key endpoint for Stage 1 LRT). However, I feel that too many big commercial players have skin in the game for the currently proposed route for the route to change dramatically (Palladium, Tanger, current Transitway ROW).
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2016, 7:51 PM
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Northern route is a good choice because of the concentration of both employment and residents. The Kanata North BRT was one of the highest-ranked BRT projects for this reason, which is why it was one of only two projects to survive the 2013 TMP's BRT cuts.

Here's my idea for a low-cost use of the northern route:


The yellow line is a cheap, Trillium-line style diesel route on the existing railway.. diverging from it at the end to cut through the woods to the new Innovation Park & Ride.

To connect it to the LRT network, the Bayshore spur is extended south to a new junction at Queensway Carleton Hospital, while the Baseline spur is extended south to a new junction at the railway line north of Knoxdale, with a station at Meadowlands/Tallwood thrown in. The route along the 417 to Kanata centre can remain as BRT.

The extension from Baseline to Knoxdale would be very cheap, because the city is already planning to build service tracks on that route to reach a new LRT yard in the area (its location is marked with a diamond my map), so the only extra costs are building stations at Knoxdale and Meadowlands, which as surface stations wouldn't be too expensive. That yard could also double as the yard for the new Kanata line.

The extension from Bayshore to QCH would be somewhat pricey as it would involve having to go over or under much of the 416/417 junction.. however, it's still a short route so it can't be that bad.

As a diesel route, the Kanata line itself would be fairly cheap to construct.

What's more--this new Kanata line could allow the city to cancel the March Road BRT, which is currently funded in the plans at a cost of $110M.. 100% paid for by the city. This new proposal could be split 1/3 between city, province, and federal government. So the $110M the city had earmarked for the March BRT can be redirected to form part of the city's share of this new project.

The original O-Train line cost about $80M, if I remember correctly; adjusted for inflation that would be about $110M today.. my proposed Kanata diesel line is about twice as long, so say maybe $250M. The Baseline->Knoxdale extension would only require building two new surface stations, at a cost of maybe $40M. The Bayshore->QCH connection might cost, say, $100M due to the high cost of running the line over/under the freeway junction... so, with my back-of-napkin analysis, the project would cost maybe $400M.. let's go up to $500M because everything is more expensive in the end. So that's about $165M to be split between city, feds, and province... $110M of which can be found by cancelling the March BRT. So we really only need another $55M of city funds, shouldn't be too hard to scrounge together.

Eventually, the yellow line could be extended to Greenboro to provide a crosstown transit connection, and connectivity to areas like Merivale Road and the Colonnade Business Park that are currently poorly served by transit. However, this would be a lot more expensive because of the need to not interfere with VIA traffic on the bridge over the river.
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Last edited by 1overcosc; Sep 3, 2016 at 11:00 PM.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2016, 9:55 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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An interesting idea to bring the Confederation line south to the Q-C Hospital/Baseline Road. This could be the crossing point for your yellow line, the Confederation Line and the Baseline BRT. Remember that the City is currently thinking of curling the Baseline BRT up to Bayshore. If this is not done, the routing (and money) could be used for the Confederation Line’s extension south. Also, if the Baseline BRT not curved north, it maintains the developed traffic patterns and avoids all those people who currently travel on the 118 to Bells Corners and Kanata having to transfer so that they do not get shunted to Bayshore; the buses would follow the existing Baseline/Robertson/Hazeldean route.

If your plan is to stop the yellow line at Woodroffe, might I suggest that you loop it north to extend it up to Baseline Station? There is no big benefit to extending the Confederation Line south of Baseline Station for one/maybe two stops, but taking the yellow line’s end north puts it at Baseline Station. Therefore, there would be a direct connection between Algonquin and Kanata North. The tracks between Baseline Station and the MSF could be used for both Confederation Line trains going to the MSF and the yellow line revenue service.
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2016, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
An interesting idea to bring the Confederation line south to the Q-C Hospital/Baseline Road. This could be the crossing point for your yellow line, the Confederation Line and the Baseline BRT. Remember that the City is currently thinking of curling the Baseline BRT up to Bayshore. If this is not done, the routing (and money) could be used for the Confederation Line’s extension south. Also, if the Baseline BRT not curved north, it maintains the developed traffic patterns and avoids all those people who currently travel on the 118 to Bells Corners and Kanata having to transfer so that they do not get shunted to Bayshore; the buses would follow the existing Baseline/Robertson/Hazeldean route.
I wasn't thinking much of the Baseline BRT... but you're right, my idea would be really good for it.

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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
If your plan is to stop the yellow line at Woodroffe, might I suggest that you loop it north to extend it up to Baseline Station? There is no big benefit to extending the Confederation Line south of Baseline Station for one/maybe two stops, but taking the yellow line’s end north puts it at Baseline Station. Therefore, there would be a direct connection between Algonquin and Kanata North. The tracks between Baseline Station and the MSF could be used for both Confederation Line trains going to the MSF and the yellow line revenue service.
My main reasoning for having the yellow line intersect with Confederation at Knoxdale is that it might not be possible to have the yellow line's DMU trains interact with the deadheading LRT trains, and it allows for the yellow line to be eventually extended further east along the railway line to Greenboro.
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 1:39 PM
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To me 7 stations in the 7km in Kanata is ridiculous and overkill. If this is supposed to be a FAST TRUNK route, then I say Kanata should only have 3 stations; Eagleson, Kanata Centrum & Tanger/CTC.

If the SENS move to Lebreton, why the hell would we build a line and a station at the CTC? To serve the car dealership? Like what the hell...

We should be encouraging buses in the area to terminate/drop people off at the three main stations in Kanata and then boom, away they go to the City.

The savings on 4 stations could be reinvested in a third line or whatever the next project may be.
I TOTALLY agree with this! I live in Kanata and 100% agree that 3 main stations is sufficient. Eagleson, Terry Fox, Tanger/CTC. Done.
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 5:24 PM
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I TOTALLY agree with this! I live in Kanata and 100% agree that 3 main stations is sufficient. Eagleson, Terry Fox, Tanger/CTC. Done.
Given those 3 stations, no walk in passengers, no walk in passengers, and no walk in passengers. Doesn't sound ideal to me. And I am talking about people actually living within reasonable walking distance of a station without having to cross anti-pedestrian development and roadways. It is bad when transit is entirely based on big business interests and automobile access.

As a resident of Kanata, will you actually use LRT if that is the station locations? During off-peak hours? And if you will, how will you access the stations?
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 5:57 PM
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As a resident of Kanata, will you actually use LRT if that is the station locations?
I doubt if things will change much. LRT won't significantly affect the local and frequent routes. Only the rapid and connexion routes will be affected and people may have to transfer where before they had a direct route, so if anything, it will make things worse for the user. It will save OCTranspo money though (especially during peak periods), since the rapid and connexion buses won't have to travel as far. This is their likely their primary motivation for this extension.

Quote:
During off-peak hours?
Kanata is very car-centric and this LRT plan won't do anything to change that. During off-peak hours transit is largely only used by students (with some exceptions).

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And if you will, how will you access the stations?
Those who currently use the bus will likely continue to do so to access the stations. Others will either drive to a park and ride or be dropped off at a station. There may be a few who will walk to a station, but not many. It will attract people to the businesses serviced by stations though from other parts of the city.

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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 6:35 PM
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There are actually a few highrises between Eagleson and Terry Fox. Would've been shame if they didn't try to capture this development. New station is right next to it.

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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 7:48 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
The designers did include protections for a future station at Jasmine (I believe the first such instance of this being built in the LRT system) so it could be built in the future.

Given that the area around Jasmine is so low-value right now, the potential for LRT-induced gentrification is very high; so perhaps a land value capture deal could be made to fund the Jasmine station.

If the city cared about transit access inside the Greenbelt, Jasmine (or something close to it) would be part of the plan from the get-go.

The fact that it is not, is yet again more evidence, not that any is needed, that the city really doesn't care about transit needs inside the Greenbelt.
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
If the city cared about transit access inside the Greenbelt, Jasmine (or something close to it) would be part of the plan from the get-go.

The fact that it is not, is yet again more evidence, not that any is needed, that the city really doesn't care about transit needs inside the Greenbelt.
This is really off topic as Jasmine is not in or even near Kanata, but as I said above, I believe the decisions are about saving money. Jasmine isn't a major transfer point and likely won't ever be, so it won't make any bus routes shorter. The only option for saving money is the 12 might be able to terminate at Jasmine instead of Blair, but that is unlikely and wouldn't save all that much.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 10:02 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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This is really off topic as Jasmine is not in or even near Kanata, but as I said above, I believe the decisions are about saving money. Jasmine isn't a major transfer point and likely won't ever be, so it won't make any bus routes shorter. The only option for saving money is the 12 might be able to terminate at Jasmine instead of Blair, but that is unlikely and wouldn't save all that much.
No, but it would make a lot of people's transit options a whole lot better.

But they live inside the Greenbelt. So they don't count.

But hey, seven stations for Kanatans. w00t!
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2016, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
No, but it would make a lot of people's transit options a whole lot better.

But they live inside the Greenbelt. So they don't count.

But hey, seven stations for Kanatans. w00t!
See, they learned from their mistakes
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2016, 1:07 AM
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There are actually a few highrises between Eagleson and Terry Fox. Would've been shame if they didn't try to capture this development. New station is right next to it.

A station here will likely result in this development multiplying a great deal and having sufficient population to attract various other amenities. This will almost be the case. If you build it, they will come. If you don't build it, this area will likely wither or stagnate. There is the real possibility of an urban node in Kanata. Much more likely than at Centrum, Eagleson or the Outlet Mall.
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2016, 2:11 AM
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We might actually see real TOD out of the Kanata proposal. Much of the LRT corridor is away from the highway and big parts of it pass through currently undeveloped lands with few barriers to pedestrian flow (there's no highway interchange at Huntmar, and the one at Castlefrank is only a half-interchange with unobtrusive ramps).

What miracle of circumstance happened that left so much land in Kanata's core undeveloped? Was that a deliberate choice by the former City of Kanata? If so, we can actually applaud them for once.

I was fairly skeptical of having seven stations in Orleans (and I am glad that it's been cut down to six, with two deferred) but in Kanata, I firmly support all seven of those stations.
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2016, 2:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
We might actually see real TOD out of the Kanata proposal. Much of the LRT corridor is away from the highway and big parts of it pass through currently undeveloped lands with few barriers to pedestrian flow (there's no highway interchange at Huntmar, and the one at Castlefrank is only a half-interchange with unobtrusive ramps).

What miracle of circumstance happened that left so much land in Kanata's core undeveloped? Was that a deliberate choice by the former City of Kanata? If so, we can actually applaud them for once.

I was fairly skeptical of having seven stations in Orleans (and I am glad that it's been cut down to six, with two deferred) but in Kanata, I firmly support all seven of those stations.
More cheap crappy-looking TOD, but TOD nonetheless.
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