Is your city a strong neighbourhood or strong downtown city?

[ue]

Originally Posted by someone123

It seems highly improbably to me that you could poll a significant number of random people in, say, Edmonton, and get this sort of list out of many of them. I think you'd normally get an answer like "Old Montreal", mostly because it's an easy to remember name and concept.

I agree. Your average Edmontonian is more likely to know Yonge Street, even Yonge-Dundas Square than any neighbourhood in Toronto. Scarborough, Mississauga, and Brampton are vaguely known as suburban areas for most, but that's about it. There are no neighbourhoods with a Greenwich Village or Beverly Hills or Haight-Ashbury affinity in Toronto. That isn't a comment on the quality of Toronto's neighbourhoods; more it's about the lack of awareness and lack of quality entertainment and media to expose people to Toronto compared to US cities. Old Montreal and Old Quebec are probably the most-known Eastern Canadian neighbourhoods. Like you say, easy to remember name and concept. Vancouver neighbourhoods are more well-known, but for those less acquainted with Van, it seems like Gastown, East Hastings (DTES), and Kits are the most well-known, in that order.

Originally Posted by someone123

Were this somehow an objective truth I would feel bad for Canada. Kensington Market is quirky, has lots of shops mixed throughout, and it gets busy in the summer but it looks like a cross between a Midwestern neighbourhood and a Latin American slum. I don't think the neighbourhood itself has any parks and it has no scenery. It is, well, kind of ugly. Toronto in general has a lot to recommend it but I would have a hard time calling it a beautiful city.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65335...8i6656!6m1!1e1

I dunno. The vernacular of the Kensington Market is very Toronto, with the brick Victorians, and the quirky reuse is very distinctive. It's not like you can't find brownstones outside of New York, anyways.

[Acajack]

Canada's cultural landscape is not set up in a way that is conducive to people across the country being familiar with many neighbourhoods in its cities - even the largest ones. It's not like in the U.S. where cities and neighbourhoods are immortalized in TV shows, movies and songs.

And so generally speaking a city like Toronto will only have household name recognition for its neighbourhoods in the area where people receive the city's local news. (Which admittedly is a fairly large area in Ontario that goes way beyond the GTA.)

I won't get into what the situation is for Montreal neighbourhoods in Quebec (and why that is), as I suppose most can already surmise what it would be.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

Were this somehow an objective truth I would feel bad for Canada. Kensington Market is quirky, has lots of shops mixed throughout, and it gets busy in the summer but it looks like a cross between a Midwestern neighbourhood and a Latin American slum. I don't think the neighbourhood itself has any parks and it has no scenery. It is, well, kind of ugly. Toronto in general has a lot to recommend it but I would have a hard time calling it a beautiful city.

I don't think anyone would call Toronto conventionally "beautiful." Nor any other city in Canada, save for parts of Montreal and Quebec City, obviously.

We don't have Oxford Streets or Champs-Élysées. Then again, I'm not convinced that most people would think of those areas when the topic of great neighbourhoods comes up.

In fact, in our Buzzfeed culture I daresay that these days Kensington is precisely the sort of place that comes up in this kind of conversation. What's interesting is that it has this high octane funkiness that is probably startling to both non-Canadians with a vague impression of Canada being boring and Canadians outside of Toronto who...probably have a vague impression that Toronto is just big and full of suits that live to work.

We don't even go there that much anymore when we go into Toronto, but we love that it's there, that it exists. It's like a milder, Canadian Christiania. There's nowhere else like it in Canada, and as best I can tell and from what I've heard, not even North America.

Have I oversold it? Yeah. Anyone on this forum who hasn't been to Toronto is invariably going to be disappointed from all this hype, I guarantee it. Kensington is best discovered by accident while walking through Chinatown on either Dundas or Spadina. On a crowded summer day, getting drawn in when you weren't expecting it, there is no more exhilarating, even magical, urban experience in this country.

And the reason I keep banging on about it on this forum is because that isn't something you can say about Canada very often. If ever.

[someone123]

There are pretty neighbourhoods. In the US, neighbourhoods like Back Bay, Greenwich Village, or Alamo Square are well-known. I will say that in most places there seems to be a trade-off between conventional beauty and dynamism or vibrancy. There are a lot of beautiful outdoor museums defended by neighbourhood associations. There aren't a lot of areas that are already in good shape and are becoming more beautiful in a creative way. There probably is a Kensington Market with better buildings somewhere, but maybe not in North America.

I don't think anyone would call Toronto conventionally "beautiful." Nor any other city in Canada, save for parts of Montreal and Quebec City, obviously.

Have you travelled much outside of Ontario, Quebec, and Manitoba? There are other urban areas people would say are beautiful in Canada, although I don't think Canada has very beautiful cities in the scheme of things. I think Quebec City is the most conventionally beautiful city in Canada (and it is very preservationist), while Montreal is in the same ballpark as a couple of others. Toronto's pretty far down, due mostly to its concrete jungle and slab feel and lack of historic architecture (there are beautiful modern buildings but they are in the minority unfortunately).

My ranking for urban attractiveness not counting scenery that have been be there anyway without humans is:

Quebec
Atlantic
BC
Ontario
Prairies

With scenery, the top 3 are somewhat closer together. Aesthetics are a matter of personal opinion of course, but I have a feeling that a lot of visitors would feel similarly.

[Metro-One]

I actually agree with your list, but again for BC i do feel that Victoria is an outlier.

There are many people who indeed rate it as a beautiful city.

The attention to gardening and landscaping in connection with the decent stock of older structures and, as you mentioned before, the lack of dead zones from urban renewal, help make Victoria a unique case.

I don't expect rouseeau to agree with this, as he has his own idea for what equates to urban beauty (as does everyone) but most foreigners that I have met who have travelled to Victoria have told me how beautiful the city is.

[someone123]

Yes, I would say that Victoria is a conventionally beautiful city too. It is closer to Quebec City than it is to Toronto in the beauty department.

I factored Victoria into the BC ranking. I think Vancouver is a little less attractive, but not bad. The small towns in BC are mostly ugly (aside from some nice ones like Nelson) but may or may not be considered urban and I didn't consider them.

The landscaping in BC is attractive and is part of the charm of the cities here. It's something I like about Halifax too. The Public Gardens are right in the middle of the city and there's a lot of greenery overall. It has a big impact on how attractive some neighbourhoods are.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

Have you travelled much outside of Ontario, Quebec, and Manitoba? There are other urban areas people would say are beautiful in Canada, although I don't think Canada has very beautiful cities in the scheme of things. I think Quebec City is the most conventionally beautiful city in Canada (and it is very preservationist), while Montreal is in the same ballpark as a couple of others. Toronto's pretty far down, due mostly to its concrete jungle and slab feel and lack of historic architecture (there are beautiful modern buildings but they are in the minority unfortunately).

I haven't been to the Maritimes, and there are several cities in the Prairies I haven't been to, but otherwise I've seen most of what Canada's cities have to offer. I agree that nobody would call anywhere in Toronto beautiful or quaint. But ranking Montreal in the same ballpark as any other city outside of Quebec City is ridiculous. There are numerous streets in Montreal that nowhere else in the country can touch in terms of beauty, and this is getting beyond the subjective. I mean, c'mon.

Originally Posted by someone123

My ranking for urban attractiveness not counting scenery that have been be there anyway without humans is:

Quebec
Atlantic
BC
Ontario
Prairies

With scenery, the top 3 are somewhat closer together. Aesthetics are a matter of personal opinion of course, but I have a feeling that a lot of visitors would feel similarly.

Seems irrelevant to talk about provinces in a discussion of the aesthetics of cities. Quebec's two major cities are the only really pretty ones Canada has, but its towns are positively shabby outside of some attractive main streets. It's the opposite with Ontario, where the big cities aren't traditionally aesthetically appealing, but there are a bunch of small towns that are every bit as charming as what you get in New England. There's some good stuff in the Maritimes too, from what I've seen second-hand. And I agree that Victoria's quite nice, in the downtown area, at least, though the residential neighbourhoods are blah and uninspiring.

But this is all neither here nor there. I would argue that the perceived attractiveness of a neighbourhood is not all that important when considering how "great" it is.

[MonkeyRonin]

I'm not sure what would make Atlantic cities that much more attractive than Ontario's - they have the same ramshackle public realm, with a more modest building stock (both new and old), and aside from maybe Saint John & St. John's aren't really discernibly more historic. But hey, wherever home is I guess...

[ue]

For what it's worth, although Halifax definitely has old-school elements to it, with quirky old neighbourhoods, it didn't feel overwhelmingly historic compared to, say, Saint John, or how I imagine Portland ME to be, let alone a city like Quebec City or Montreal. The history there is very apparent, but it also felt like it was a living, progressing city, with plenty modernist and post-modernist urban designs mixed in. It didn't feel dominated by any particular era, actually. Overall, the Maritimes felt less "picturesque historic" than I thought it would. It doesn't help that a lot of the villages out there are nothing more than an intersection and fishing wharf, whereas out here, even villages tend to have full main streets (or originally full) and blocks of residential. Ontario, by contrast, seems to blend the more robust town aesthetic of the Prairies with the Maritime history. It's simply amazing how Ontario seems to have endless towns with fine-grained brick main streets and blocks of cute old homes.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I haven't been to the Maritimes, and there are several cities in the Prairies I haven't been to, but otherwise I've seen most of what Canada's cities have to offer. I agree that nobody would call anywhere in Toronto beautiful or quaint. But ranking Montreal in the same ballpark as any other city outside of Quebec City is ridiculous. There are numerous streets in Montreal that nowhere else in the country can touch in terms of beauty, and this is getting beyond the subjective. I mean, c'mon.

Are we talking about some kind of average, or how many specifically attractive areas you can find? I am not sure. Montreal is a pretty mixed bag overall. You can find nice blocks and nice neighbourhoods that are intact, but you can find that in other cities too. The more extensive and complete heritage areas of Quebec City are hard to find in other Canadian cities.

[shappy]

Originally Posted by someone123

Were this somehow an objective truth I would feel bad for Canada. Kensington Market is quirky, has lots of shops mixed throughout, and it gets busy in the summer but it looks like a cross between a Midwestern neighbourhood and a Latin American slum. I don't think the neighbourhood itself has any parks and it has no scenery. It is, well, kind of ugly. Toronto in general has a lot to recommend it but I would have a hard time calling it a beautiful city.

It seems you've entirely missed the point re Kensington. It's a place with an interesting history, a very strong community feel, etc. You don't have to look hard to find love letters to the place online. Life kind of vomits there - it's most certainly not supposed to be pretty and if it started to get pretty then some diehard Kensingtonian would make it ugly again.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ue

For what it's worth, although Halifax definitely has old-school elements to it, with quirky old neighbourhoods, it didn't feel overwhelmingly historic compared to, say, Saint John, or how I imagine Portland ME to be, let alone a city like Quebec City or Montreal. The history there is very apparent, but it also felt like it was a living, progressing city, with plenty modernist and post-modernist urban designs mixed in. It didn't feel dominated by any particular era, actually. Overall, the Maritimes felt less "picturesque historic" than I thought it would.

It's hasn't been systematically preserved like Quebec City, that's for sure. But if you dig down there is a lot of history.

The people who say that Atlantic Canada is no more historic than Ontario or that it has more modest historical buildings are just factually wrong (and probably haven't been there or don't care to learn much about the region). Halifax has a bunch of masonry buildings from the 1700's. In the Annapolis Valley the oldest stone house is from the 1690's, and people have been living there for 400 years. Nova Scotia's legislature is from the 1810's.

My opinion on aesthetics is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by rousseau

We don't even go there that much anymore when we go into Toronto, but we love that it's there, that it exists. It's like a milder, Canadian Christiania. There's nowhere else like it in Canada, and as best I can tell and from what I've heard, not even North America.

Me neither. I think I haven't been there for ten years. I wonder how it evolved ?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's hasn't been systematically preserved like Quebec City, that's for sure. But if you dig down there is a lot of history.

The people who say that Atlantic Canada is no more historic than Ontario or that it has more modest historical buildings are just factually wrong (and probably haven't been there or don't care to learn much about the region). Halifax has a bunch of masonry buildings from the 1700's. In the Annapolis Valley the oldest stone house is from the 1690's, and people have been living there for 400 years. Nova Scotia's legislature is from the 1810's.

My opinion on aesthetics is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

No one said it didn't have more history - just that it's not really that visually apparent. Those 17th and 18th century buildings aren't really a notable characteristic of the urban landscape, and the 19th and early 20th century building stock is going to be both more numerous and typically of larger scale in Ontario by virtue of size & wealth in that era. Post-war heritage preservation looks to be pretty similar in either place as well, which is to say that the old urban cores were neither decimated nor perfectly retained like that of Quebec City or Montreal's Old Port.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by someone123

Are we talking about some kind of average, or how many specifically attractive areas you can find? I am not sure. Montreal is a pretty mixed bag overall. You can find nice blocks and nice neighbourhoods that are intact, but you can find that in other cities too. The more extensive and complete heritage areas of Quebec City are hard to find in other Canadian cities.

Le Plateau is intact. It must be the largest neighborhood in Canada, build from the victorian time to the second WW, that is almost completely intact like that. And it's as big as many neighborhoods combine from most other cities. Old Montreal is pretty much intact and you can't find the equivalent in other cities (it's completely different from Old Quebec). Outremont is intact. The Mile End is intact. Pointe Sainte-Charles is intact. Verdun is intact. Westmount is intact. Côte-Des-Neiges is intact. So is NDG, Ville-Mont-Royal, Rosemont-La-Petite-Patrie, Hochelagua, le Centre-sud (the village)... I think you have a tendency to underestimate Montreal. I don't think you like the city very much. The scope of complete heritage areas in Montreal is many many times what it is in Quebec City. Unless, you only like New France historia, then QC beats Montreal. But you get around that block pretty fast.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Le Plateau is intact. It must be the largest neighborhood in Canada, build from the victorian time to the second WW, that is almost completely intact like that. And it's as big as many neighborhoods combine from most other cities. Old Montreal is pretty much intact and you can't find the equivalent in other cities (it's completely different from Old Quebec). Outremont is intact. The Mile End is intact. Pointe Sainte-Charles is intact. Verdun is intact. Westmount is intact. Côte-Des-Neiges is intact. So is NDG, Ville-Mont-Royal, Rosemont-La-Petite-Patrie, Hochelagua, le Centre-sud (the village)... I think you have a tendency to underestimate Montreal. I don't think you like the city very much. The scope of complete heritage areas in Montreal is many many times what it is in Quebec City. Unless, you only like New France historia, then QC beats Montreal. But you get around that block pretty fast.

It's a bigger city so I expect it to have larger intact areas, all else being equal. I guess I was thinking more about, say, the density of ugly 1960's and 70's concrete developments. Montreal has a lot of those.

I don't dislike Montreal. It's one of my favourite cities and I was just there a few months ago. I do like the quaint New France historical stuff too though.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

No one said it didn't have more history - just that it's not really that visually apparent. Those 17th and 18th century buildings aren't really a notable characteristic of the urban landscape, and the 19th and early 20th century building stock is going to be both more numerous and typically of larger scale in Ontario by virtue of size & wealth in that era. Post-war heritage preservation looks to be pretty similar in either place as well, which is to say that the old urban cores were neither decimated nor perfectly retained like that of Quebec City or Montreal's Old Port.

Have you ever been there? I'm not sure I can agree with this. I mean, if you go visit Halifax and stand in the Grand Parade, a prominent spot in the middle of town, you're on a square from 1749 and there's a church from 1750, a stone building behind that from 1760, and then a few other wooden buildings from 1760-1810. Then up the hill is the Town Clock, maybe the most famous landmark in the city, and it's from 1802.

Another aspect of the aesthetics of Atlantic Canada that I failed to mention is that I like the brightly coloured wooden buildings more than, say, brown brick. This is just a personal preference.

[Prometheus]

If we are including distinct neighbourhoods which are contiguous with a city's downtown, then Gastown in Vancouver is ridiculously beautiful.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Are we talking about some kind of average, or how many specifically attractive areas you can find? I am not sure. Montreal is a pretty mixed bag overall. You can find nice blocks and nice neighbourhoods that are intact, but you can find that in other cities too. The more extensive and complete heritage areas of Quebec City are hard to find in other Canadian cities.

I've long been of the school of thought that Montreal is more interesting than it is pretty, but in recent years I've been coming around the idea that it is a fairly decent-looking city.

I think part of my lack of enthusiasm for Montreal aesthetics came from the fact that I first got acquainted with it when it was a bit dog-eared and run-down. But over the past 15 years or so the city has really spiffied itself up, with the result that its architectural finery is much more in evidence now.

[shappy]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

If we are including distinct neighbourhoods which are contiguous with a city's downtown, then Gastown in Vancouver is ridiculously beautiful.

Gastown is a great looking urban area. But to tie it into the theme of aesthetics vs captivating/interesting, I personally wouldn't say it grabbed my attention for very long.